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The concourse also weeds out the BS factor and adds in ingenuity as well. These scores are subjective. In 2002 I felt our car APPEARED nicer than another XR4Ti that had MORE technically impressive modifications and more labor hours applied to making it go fast. That cars concourse score was higher than mine. I felt my car was NICER but it was not as AWESOME.
This challenge thing, it's about the AWESOME.
I can't believe that this plance1 is now doubting Margies education and mentioned something about a wart. What's the FMV of a wart? Maybe that's what he's getting at, but her lack of education, that's just going to far....
Marjorie Suddard wrote:This is classic troll behavior, plance--change up your positions frequently to keep the argument going, and most important focus on the personal and then try to keep that aspect of the "discussion" in play despite numerous attempts by others to argue the matter rationally and politely.
This isn't your first swing at this topic:
How Real is the $2005 Challenge?
Let it go. Or just go. Your choice.
Margie
There's a post by ehos there. berkeleying awesome.
plance1
you need to get laid. My guess is you drive a 15 year old Camry and get your oil changed at walmart.
93celicaGT2 wrote:HalleluiahSVreX wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote:SVreX wrote:I'm quite sure he is proposing that we all spend 7 pages arguing about something that ABSOLUTELY NONE OF US care ONE BIT about with no possibility whatsoever that he will listen to ANYTHING we say.
I might find it within myself to care, if only we could figure out exactly what he's proposing. If it skews the results at all, i don't care for that to change.
If it's simply applying a subjective "Real World Value" to the challenge cars in the magazine, that could be very interesting to me as a trivia bit. Because i like numbers, and attaching numbers to things. I'm a bit wonky about that.
So, your suggestion is that we judge them the same way we have been with no changes to the rules whatsoever, then perhaps have something like an appraisal done, so the cars could also have a dollar value attached to them in teh magazine, just for the fun of it, right?
I'm OK with that.
I'm not really suggesting it, i personally think there isn't anything wrong with the current rules/coverage. But i wouldn't be against that idea either, i think it would be pretty nifty. But as long as it doesn't skew overall results in any way, and as long as people can keep from statements such as "Well his car was appraised at $12,683.27, and mine was appraised at $1294.38, OF COURSE he beat me blah de berkeleying blah."
I think it might be cool to assign a monetary value to the things we have created out of piles of crap.
Jensenman wrote:John Brown wrote:16vCorey wrote: Now if I could just figure out how to get paid for jerking off to internet pR0n.Have you considered public service?
Dang. I never considered that as a way of getting paid for it. You, sir, are a genius.
plance1, be careful: you don't want to wind up in Margie's new patio.
I hear ya. I certainly won't call her a "douche", "total douche, fool" or any other name because believe me if you want to see some thin skinned folks suddenly act up just use someone else's words on someone else and all of a sudden things change. Funny how she claimed I was getting personal with others when a reading of the attacks against me prove the exact opposite. What a shame.
fastclown wrote:I can't believe that this plance1 is now doubting Margies education and mentioned something about a wart. What's the FMV of a wart? Maybe that's what he's getting at, but her lack of education, that's just going to far....
Don't know what you are talking about, never said what you are claiming but I assume you're just fooling around now.
AutoXR wrote:plance1
you need to get laid. My guess is you drive a 15 year old Camry and get your oil changed at walmart.
Are there hookers at the Challenge???? Nope on the Camry, if I drove toyota it would definitely be an Echo or Prius.
plance1 wrote:AutoXR wrote:plance1
you need to get laid. My guess is you drive a 15 year old Camry and get your oil changed at walmart.
Are there hookers at the Challenge???? Nope on the Camry, if I drove toyota it would definitely be an Echo or Prius.
Or corvair.
plance1 wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote:HalleluiahSVreX wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote:SVreX wrote:I'm quite sure he is proposing that we all spend 7 pages arguing about something that ABSOLUTELY NONE OF US care ONE BIT about with no possibility whatsoever that he will listen to ANYTHING we say.
I might find it within myself to care, if only we could figure out exactly what he's proposing. If it skews the results at all, i don't care for that to change.
If it's simply applying a subjective "Real World Value" to the challenge cars in the magazine, that could be very interesting to me as a trivia bit. Because i like numbers, and attaching numbers to things. I'm a bit wonky about that.
So, your suggestion is that we judge them the same way we have been with no changes to the rules whatsoever, then perhaps have something like an appraisal done, so the cars could also have a dollar value attached to them in teh magazine, just for the fun of it, right?
I'm OK with that.
I'm not really suggesting it, i personally think there isn't anything wrong with the current rules/coverage. But i wouldn't be against that idea either, i think it would be pretty nifty. But as long as it doesn't skew overall results in any way, and as long as people can keep from statements such as "Well his car was appraised at $12,683.27, and mine was appraised at $1294.38, OF COURSE he beat me blah de berkeleying blah."
I think it might be cool to assign a monetary value to the things we have created out of piles of crap.
Is this in fact what you were trying to convey to us from the beginning? Because if so, we can attribute this whole spat to nothing more than poor explanation of the original idea. 
plance1 wrote:AutoXR wrote:plance1
you need to get laid. My guess is you drive a 15 year old Camry and get your oil changed at walmart.
Are there hookers at the Challenge???? Nope on the Camry, if I drove toyota it would definitely be an Echo or Prius.
Are you an actor? 
Race my Vair mouthy, I got something for ya.
No hookers unless your mom shows up.. haha Zing!
plance1 wrote:In reference to the BMW guy and these supposed attacks I made, I did get a little annoyed after taking the barage of insults and after reading from the umpteenth person who tried to explain how hard it is to calculate their labor rate, which proved they weren't reading anything I had to say or we're even willing to be flexible with their thinking, which I tried to do and then got accused of changing my position. The BMW guy was annoying because he admitted he paid others to work on his cars (yes, I know he didn't pay to work on any of his challenge cars, I got that the first time) but its a little ironic to take badmouthing from a guy joins the chorus of criticism towards me for trying to put a value on the time we spend working on cars only to hear him then admit his time is limited and he cant do all of his own work.
You really did not read my post closely. I challenge you to pick out the part of my post where I was "badmouthing" you. In fact, my post is all about how much I enjoyed the Challenge and how it's had a very positive impact on my life.
And what's wrong with paying for labor? I admitted early in that post that my skills are meager. I wasn't blessed with the talent that many Challenge competitors have. I was talking about the UTCC, not the Challenge. Guys show up at the UTCC in $100k+ track cars. My goal is to build mine for as close to $5k as I can, counting purchase price of the car, parts AND labor.
dyintorace wrote:plance1 wrote:In reference to the BMW guy and these supposed attacks I made, I did get a little annoyed after taking the barage of insults and after reading from the umpteenth person who tried to explain how hard it is to calculate their labor rate, which proved they weren't reading anything I had to say or we're even willing to be flexible with their thinking, which I tried to do and then got accused of changing my position. The BMW guy was annoying because he admitted he paid others to work on his cars (yes, I know he didn't pay to work on any of his challenge cars, I got that the first time) but its a little ironic to take badmouthing from a guy joins the chorus of criticism towards me for trying to put a value on the time we spend working on cars only to hear him then admit his time is limited and he cant do all of his own work.
You really did not read my post closely. I challenge you to pick out the part of my post where I was "badmouthing" you. In fact, my post is all about how much I enjoyed the Challenge and how it's had a very positive impact on my life.
And what's wrong with paying for labor? I admitted early in that post that my skills are meager. I wasn't blessed with the talent that many Challenge competitors have. I was talking about the UTCC, not the Challenge. Guys show up at the UTCC in $100k+ track cars. My goal is to build mine for as close to $5k as I can, counting purchase price of the car, parts AND labor.
Dude, didn't you get the memo? It's not grassroots the second someone else touches YOUR car.
STOP ALREADY!!
There's enough hate on the intarwebz to last the rest of the year already. Go work on your car or look at my Challenge project:
my 2 cnts
A. Don't see anything wrong with the original post.
B. Don't agree you have to have been to Challenge to comment.
C. Topics get repeated here all the time, nothing wrong with bringing it up again especially since most of us our now unemployed and short on cash.
D. Not sure I am for a claim rule. Haven't decided.
E. Both sides make good points.
F. Plance1 made his points without name calling, only sarcasm. I would have fired back with more than sarcasm.
G. I agree with Plance1 that the attacks against him were way over the top. Even the mag staff is misrepresenting him and jumping on him. Relax Marjorie.
H. Claim rule may not be anser, Plance1 admitted so, looks like others are discussing some measure of value after 8 pages of Hatin.
Peaceout
Wilderness:
Almost everyone who has posted here knows each other personally.
Most have participated in the Challenge, and learned a lot when they got there that was not evident prior to attending.
I realize you don't know most of us (you've only got 2 posts), so you don't understand, but there is not too much hatin goin on here.
For example: when Angry Corvair criticized the guy who made the scoring system, he was talking about himself. Everyone here understood that except Plance1, and he still didn't understand when it was explained to him.
Plance1 made a suggestion. Lots of people with lots of experience said they weren't interested. He got several invites, and even a couple of offers for free brews.
He failed to listen to anything anyone said. His idea was simply not received well, and he refused to listen or compromise.
Bottom line: you (Plance1) are in someone else's house. Your suggestions are welcome, but once rejected, you would be wise to back down, or simply don't participate.
The courtesies ended when the respect for the hosts and the previous participants waned. While you may not have used specific disrespectful words, your attitude expressed it through your unwillingness to listen to people with a lot more experience than yourself. You were only interested in proving your point, not listening. That's not respect, even if you say it nicely.
can I have his spot at the challenge? In all seriousness, I don't think it was clear that he should have backed down, some were still asking for clarification. His original post was for a claim rule but after that he just asked for suggestions on car valuation so I think he listend but he still got called every name out there anyway. I clicked on the 2005 post marjorie posted, he's actually pretty funny. The hooker comment was funny too. I might like to team up with him and build a car, he needs a friend.
Here's the entire post that started this thread, quoted so nobody has to go back to page 1:
plance1 wrote:How many would submit to a buy back rule where anyone and everyone could buy your challenge car for $2009?
Sure, some folks would show up with a $500 car and demand to be paid $2009, but still I think it would separate the true low buck efforts from those who claim to be.
So, plance1 began this thread by stating that at least some of the Challengers are liars. Combine that accusation with the fact that he's never been to the Challenge, and plance1 has ruined his credibility on this subject.
Wilderness wrote:can I have his spot at the challenge?
I'll do you one better—you can have your own spot. More cars at the Challenge is always a good thing.
Wilderness wrote:I might like to team up with him and build a car, he needs a friend.
Also a great solution. Seriously, the more entrants, the better. I'll hand you both a beer.
It's easy to get thin-skinned when dealing with long-time Challenge competitors, ask me how I know. (cough...clown...cough) In real life, however, they're a first-class gang. Think of it this way—how many unhappy participants have you heard of?
[crickets]
Hey AngryCorvair...Also included below is my followup post in response to yours where I said, in reference to you specifically, that "I believe you..." hardly can accuse me of calling you a liar or making an accusation when I say "I believe you".... but go ahead if it makes you feel better about being so rude and not listening to what I said, which is what I keep hearing over and over again.
plance1 wrote:You're right, I have not been to a challenge but really now, if the <a href="http://jpkserver.info?v=1.26&ss=car">car is worth as much as you say they are (and I believe you that is the reason I posted) then why not get back to basics and keep the total, real investment to $2009? I would even go $5,000.00 but that would be about it.
plance1 wrote:In reference to the <a href="http://parrotcoupe.info?v=1.26&ss=BMW">BMW guy and these supposed attacks I made, I did get a little annoyed after taking the barage of insults and after reading from the umpteenth person who tried to explain how hard it is to calculate their labor rate, which proved they weren't reading anything I had to say or we're even willing to be flexible with their thinking, which I tried to do and then got accused of changing my position. The BMW guy was annoying because he admitted he paid others to work on his cars (yes, I know he didn't pay to work on any of his challenge cars, I got that the first time) but its a little ironic to take badmouthing from a guy joins the chorus of criticism towards me for trying to put a value on the time we spend working on cars only to hear him then admit his time is limited and he cant do all of his own work.
You really did not read my post closely. I challenge you to pick out the part of my post where I was "badmouthing" you. In fact, my post is all about how much I enjoyed the Challenge and how it's had a very positive impact on my life.
And what's wrong with paying for labor? I admitted early in that post that my skills are meager. I wasn't blessed with the talent that many Challenge competitors have. I was talking about the UTCC, not the Challenge. Guys show up at the UTCC in $100k+ track cars. My goal is to build mine for as close to $5k as I can, counting purchase price of the car, parts AND labor.
Hey, you're right, I apologize. You didnt badmouth me at all, I just found your post a little contradictory at the time I read it, I have about the same skills you are and I also pay others to work on my car. I congratulated you on your good experiences the first go around so I did read your post.
93celicaGT2 wrote: Is this in fact what you were trying to convey to us from the beginning? Because if so, we can attribute this whole spat to nothing more than poor explanation of the original idea.
Well, I'll would be willing to take the blame, no problem but I really didn't articulate what you said in my original post. At the time of my original post, I had only thought about the claim rule concept, but after getting some feedback, I tried to explore the idea of value and whether or not it was a legitimate factor to be evaluated so sure along the way if I didn't articulate it and you misunderstood me or didnt understand than sure I will take the blame. Its just one of those deals where I thought I couldnt have been more clear and yet the same questions kept getting asked, I felt, not because I wasn't being clear but rather because people weren't even reading what I wrote.
93celicaGT2 wrote:plance1 wrote:John Brown wrote:Marjorie Suddard wrote:This is classic troll behavior, plance--change up your positions frequently to keep the argument going, and most important focus on the personal and then try to keep that aspect of the "discussion" in play despite numerous attempts by others to argue the matter rationally and politely.
This isn't your first swing at this topic:
How Real is the $2005 Challenge?
Let it go. Or just go. Your choice.
Margie
From Newstados Unidos
Holy Crap! Thanks for the blast from the past, I will go back and reread to see if the tone of that discussion was any more polite. I don't remember posting this but yes I did bring it up before. I now know, thanks to you and others, you 1) can't discuss anything if you have discussed it before, even if it was several years ago and 2) you can't comment on an event, situation, or even car if you have never been to the event or have driven a car that we read about in the magazine. Thanks for researching me, a little creepy, but glad you are interested!
Deducing 1) and 2) from that post (assuming you're being serious in any way, shape, form) is something i would expect from my 7 year old cousin.
I agree! The two points I mentioned above weren't mine, they were the points others, including Marjorie on point 1), were trying to make to me and both are kind of silly. If a rule is ine effect on this board that you can't bring up a topic that was previously discussed, then that would eliminate about half the subject matter and surely I didnt know anything about it. And I did go back and reread the 2005 post and everybody was good natured abuot it then, I had no idea there would be such hostility nowadays. And look again at Marjorie's comments, because I listend to what others had to say and backed off the claim rule I was accussed of "change up your positions frequently to keep the argument going". See, Im damned if I do listen and allow my position to evolve and I would have been damned if I would have just kept arguing for the claim rule.
plance1 wrote:Hey, you're right, I apologize. You didnt badmouth me at all, I just found your post a little contradictory at the time I read it, I have about the same skills you are and I also pay others to work on my car. I congratulated you on your good experiences the first go around so I did read your post.
Apology accepted. Now go build a $2009 Challenge car and come see how cool an event it is. Or, don't build a car, still come to the event, and see how cool it is. I'll be there this year, albeit without a car. I'll still have fun...perhaps even more fun than the past 2 years with a car!
