skeze New Reader
Nov. 8, 2010 8:45 p.m.

here's my delemna. while benching my build sheet for my $2011 challenge car I am looking to get some adjustability for dialing in the cars overall balance. since this is my challenge car my options for suspension mods are very limited.

here's what I've kinda come up with Car in question;

1995 Mercedes C220

Sway bars are coming off of a larger sedan like an "E" class ,that should give me a bit more thickness by at least a few MM. but I will have to make it work and use a ton of "will" in doing so.

The tires and wheels I plan on using are not going to let me use coilover shocks and springs. so what i think I might do is use adjustable coilover sleeves from another type of vehicle to mount in the spring perches. as the suspension consists of shocks and coil springs that are placed in the lower control arms rather than a coilover shock,that i am used to...

question is this how scary does that sound? Has anyone ever tried that approach with a modicum of success?

because of the budget limitations we must rely on sheer cleverness to over come these limitations.

just a set of lowering springs will set me back just over $300 with shipping and the adjustable coilover sleeves would require not even a third of that sum to become a reality.and afford me the ability to adjust the height and balance of the car (in theory).

the stock shocks only have around 20 k miles so I'm guessing they might be fine to use for now. any advice or suggestions might save me from wrecking the damn thing if that approach is destined for failure .

or should i just blow a good portion of the whole build budget on a "properly engineered" suspension kit sich as a B&G or H&R ,eibach or something like that just for the sake of safety?

MrJoshua SuperDork
Nov. 8, 2010 8:50 p.m.

Do lots of internet research to find out the stock spring rate, length, etc... or just measure and calculate for the stock springs. Head to your local U-pull yard and look for some with much much thicker coils, the same diameter, and as long as possible. Cut the u-pull yard springs to a proper guess length and install. For shocks you can try to find stiffer aftermarket shocks that are not specific to your car but can be made work or try the "Phonis" method of Teamswift.net fame where you drill a small hole, take out the stock oil, and replace it with thicker motorcycle shock oil. Don't ever spend $300 on springs for a challenge car.

tuna55 Dork
Nov. 8, 2010 9:25 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: Do lots of internet research to find out the stock spring rate, length, etc... or just measure and calculate for the stock springs. Head to your local U-pull yard and look for some with much much thicker coils, the same diameter, and as long as possible. Cut the u-pull yard springs to a proper guess length and install. For shocks you can try to find stiffer aftermarket shocks that are not specific to your car but can be made work or try the "Phonis" method of Teamswift.net fame where you drill a small hole, take out the stock oil, and replace it with thicker motorcycle shock oil. Don't ever spend $300 on springs for a challenge car.

I would suggest to do the tuning before you are done. Buy ten different spring sets out of the junkyard for nothing and test to figure out which ones work the best and stick with them. Adjustability is expensive. I have never entered, but that is the approach that I would take.

FlightService Reader
Nov. 8, 2010 9:30 p.m.

D^$^$ IT. I found a C220 I wanted to do a challenge car out of.
YouSUCK for stealing my idea before I even told anyone.

Good luck with the build.

skeze New Reader
Nov. 8, 2010 9:58 p.m.

In reply to FlightService:

I dare you!!!

then we could meet up and compare notes betwixt ourselves.

In reply to MrJoshua: thanks for the link some of that might actually work.

In reply to tuna55: That is a great idea one of my freinds has a humongous box full of old coil springs from his imca modified cars i might see if any of those might work as they are labeled with spring rates and suc.h

MrJoshua SuperDork
Nov. 8, 2010 10:50 p.m.

In reply to skeze:

It works. Springs and shocks are generic. Mounting is the only thing specific to the car. Get somewhere near the right rate and length and proper tires and you have a top 10 car at the challenge autocross.

bluesideup New Reader
Nov. 8, 2010 11:07 p.m.

The AMG versions just used off the shelf Mercedes springs that were for heavier cars. Find an E-class and try using the stock springs from it, maybe an E wagon would have a higher rate rear stung so you can get the thing to rotate. You might also be able to fill in the voids on the front A-arm bushings with some poly or use later CLK bushings in your arms.

FlightService Reader
Nov. 9, 2010 10:15 a.m.

In reply to skeze:

I wanted to show up with something unique and styl-ish. I thought the Merc would fit the bill, but if you are showing up with one that takes out the unique.

Back to the drawing board.

poopshovel SuperDork
Nov. 9, 2010 11:15 a.m.
MrJoshua wrote: Do lots of internet research to find out the stock spring rate, length, etc... or just measure and calculate for the stock springs. Head to your local U-pull yard and look for some with much much thicker coils, the same diameter, and as long as possible. Cut the u-pull yard springs to a proper guess length and install. For shocks you can try to find stiffer aftermarket shocks that are not specific to your car but can be made work or try the "Phonis" method of Teamswift.net fame where you drill a small hole, take out the stock oil, and replace it with thicker motorcycle shock oil. Don't ever spend $300 on springs for a challenge car.

tr00f, all the way around. One gigantic ford or chevy van spring cut in half = two springs with big rates. Also, (again,) bring a strut into your local parts store and see if they'll let you raid the boxes of Rancho truck shocks till you find one that'll work.

That said, we've had some pretty awesome scores, including a free set of GC coilovers (friend ordered them and either didn't specify/incorrectly specified whether they were for Konis or Tokicos, and couldn't be returned for a refund,) and very recently, a full set of near-new KYB adjustables that the seller DIDN"T KNOW WERE ADJUSTABLE for $100.

bluej HalfDork
Nov. 9, 2010 12:07 p.m.

In reply to FlightService:

It'd still be unique. If that's the car you want to have after the challenge then rock it!

MrJoshua SuperDork
Nov. 9, 2010 3:39 p.m.

In reply to poopshovel:

Thought you might agree-stole the spring idea from you guys.

poopshovel SuperDork
Nov. 9, 2010 3:45 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote: In reply to poopshovel: Thought you might agree-stole the spring idea from you guys.

I was berkeleying amazed at how well it worked. The radius on the front springs of the Boss Hong were so freakin huge that at one point, we had half a van spring tucked inside the cut stock spring. It was too stiff. Woulda been cool if we could've done it in the rear.

Jensenman SuperDork
Nov. 9, 2010 6:52 p.m.

Crap, you can buy those ebay coilover sleeve/spring kits for cheep. Figure $60-$65 a set including shipping.

Like this:

Not mine, no affiliation, YMMV, returns not guaranteed, consult your doctor, past performance is no indication of future gains, etc

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Adjustable-Coilover-Spring-Sleeves-Miata-1999-2005-Red-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aMiataQQhashZitem255ce63b20QQitemZ160472382240QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

skeze New Reader
Nov. 9, 2010 7:26 p.m.

In reply to Jensenman: exactly what i was thinking was going to go for a car with similar dimensions and weight like a tl acura or something to that nature...

in reply to flight service:

the reason I picked this car is because it is so un-unique and because of the chassis because it can support a myriad of engines and if you can find a 5 spd auto that thing is a tank can support up to 795 ft.lbs of torque all day long...example it's the same box that is in the srt8 and the slr maclaren and just about every other merc prior to 2008

if you take a drive down any tote the note strip you'll find a w202 in just about every lot in town...

I'll make it a challenge 1-1 that even though we'd be sporting the same chassis our respective formulas will be absolutely unique to each other. just don't bring a black one because I'm bringing the murdered Anikin Skywalker routine back from the dead !!!

I have a feeling this chassis will be the new E36,S13,Miata I'm starting the trend you read it here first.

of course being a challenge car it might be a bit ricey but it will be "Hella Functional" !!!!

skeze New Reader
Nov. 9, 2010 9:21 p.m.

I need to get some 15 mm spacers to fit these wheels stock is15x6.5 et37 these are from a S class 16x7.5 et 51 I showed this picture to illustrate how much bolt is remaining without the spacer,subtract 15 mm from whats left and i have about 17 mm to bolt into the hub is that sufficient or will I need to find some longer mounting bolts?

[/URL]

this image illustrates how close the rim is to one of the suspension pieces as the wheel is mounted to the hub without the spacer. very close!

[/URL]

this next illustration is of the actual wheel [/URL]

here is the weight of the wheel. 17 pounds!!! the stock wheel is probably a tad bit heavier. [/URL]

the question i asked earlier was about using spare wheels in lieu of regular wheels since on the rims themselves it states that these wheels should be used only as spares.common sense would dictate to heed the
factory recomendations. but common sense also dictates that a $2011 competition automobile is insane!!! to illustrate this point I have included a picture of a BMX bicycle I built for $2000 18 pounds of titanium ,aluminum and carbon fiber.

[/URL]

skeze New Reader
Nov. 10, 2010 9:48 p.m.

I was reading the factory warning sticker and it said replace after 12000 miles...that's an eternity for a non commuter car.so i think I will use them with glee

at $25 bucks a pop that means I have a whopping $200 to put towards tires,and i have been seeing good to great set's of competition tires for right around that mark...

skeze New Reader
Nov. 12, 2010 9:54 a.m.

well here are the two wheels together. i weighed them on a digital scale
the ones i will be using for the front are 16x7 et 37 =14 lbs. the ones I'll be using on the back are 16x7.5 et 51 = 16.5 lbs.

i have a mind to pick up a set of the slk spares which are 15x4,5 et of 37 =9 lbs for use as front skinnies for the drag put a 165/60/ 15

[URL=http://img443.imageshack.us/i/dsc00302du.jpg/][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]

WilberM3 Reader
Nov. 12, 2010 11:10 a.m.

i wouldnt worry about skinnies unless you expect to be a serious threat in the drags, but you could always grab em now and if your budget is free enough by the end i suppose they wouldnt hurt.

whey MB says use less than 12000 miles, any idea why that is or if lateral loading on race rubber might actually threaten the rather lightweight wheels' integrity? (doesnt really look like it to me, probably just factory liability reasons)

skeze New Reader
Nov. 12, 2010 6:41 p.m.

In reply to WilberM3: i think it may have something to do with liability issues as well since MB imo seems to completely "over build".

on a different note but not entirely unrelated...

why does Mc Donalds coffee have to be so damn hot? I mean i know they Got sued and had to put warning lables on their coffee cups,but dayum!!! it takes 20 minutes to even get a sip,and by that time i'm already at work having to walk around with my coffee instead of ,never mind I think I just figured out their marketing scheme...maybe the same thing is going on with the wheels

these wheels are like 350 bucks at the dealer

Jensenman SuperDork
Nov. 12, 2010 6:51 p.m.

You'll definitely need some longer wheel bolts. Mercedes used all kinds of mix n' match lengths so they shouldn't be hard to find.

Tell you what, if I could find a crunched 5 speed 171/202 car cheap enough I'd probably grab it for use in a future swap. That SC 4 banger is pretty stout. I bet it would go like hell if it was sitting in, say, a 1st gen RX7, MGB, etc.

Marty! Dork
Nov. 12, 2010 7:09 p.m.

OT:

Nice bike. I have a Matt Pohlkamp Schwinn frame in my garage rafters that I'm gonna build someday. I wish I still had my Mavic XIXIX wheels like you have. Sold them a couple years ago and have regretted it since.

BTW, did you see the that the newest issue has a pic and quote from Craig Reynolds? I had no idea he had gotten so into motor sports after BMX.

skeze New Reader
Nov. 12, 2010 8:27 p.m.

In reply to Jensenman: I had the same thing in mind but for sheer craziness put the hardware in like a '59 Anglia notch back,or gulp Datsun 510...

and to Marty; Thanks for the compliment the wheels are actually FMF power moto's with titanium spokes and hollow axles...I have'nt raced in a long,long time but still have my bikes,for riding around the 'hood.and we go to mexico alot, so they go with us...you get mad respect with bikes like that down there...I'd say it'd be the equivelent of a Porsche gt3rs based on the looks i get

skeze New Reader
Nov. 13, 2010 2:44 p.m.

I test fitted the front wheels today to see what i was looking at found that in order to fit the center cap i will need to add a 10 mm spacer to clear the hub cover seal thingie which would be cool because with the wheel mounted on the hub i only have about 12-14 mm between the wheel and the vertical stabilizer thingie,(Pictures will show what I'm going on about).

I'm not so great with nomenclature,but also I'm not a mechanic so you will have to forgive me on that one.

i could leave it without a spacer but I am thinking I will only be able to use a 215/40/16 with out any rubbing issues on the inward sidewall of the tires ,commonsense dictates that 215 might prove to be inadequate on the autoX course and i want to go with a 225/45/16 for the front to have a little more meat on the ground, so a spacer is the inevitable solution which is not too bad of a thing as it will increase my front track a fraction more than without... I understand that wider track is a good thing .

heres the pictures enjoy also I apologize for the state in which my garage has become I will get it straightened out this week, my wife tells me so...

what the wheel looks like in the well,absolutely zero issues clearing stock brakes.

close up.

detail of wheel to vertical stabilizer clearance issue.

oblique of wheel in well.

more detail semi frush.

Josh Dork
Nov. 13, 2010 6:59 p.m.
skeze wrote: on a different note but not entirely unrelated... why does Mc Donalds coffee have to be so damn hot? I mean i know they Got sued and had to put warning lables on their coffee cups,but dayum!!! it takes 20 minutes to even get a sip,and by that time i'm already at work having to walk around with my coffee instead of ,never mind I think I just figured out their marketing scheme...maybe the same thing is going on with the wheels

THIS. I hate it when people bitch about that lawsuit. I wish 100 other people would do the same thing just so that maybe someday I could take a sip of drive-thru coffee WHILE I AM ACTUALLY STILL IN MY CAR without melting flesh.

stuart in mn SuperDork
Nov. 13, 2010 7:14 p.m.

It may be possible to find a different dust cap for the wheel bearing that doesn't stick out as far. I know BMW guys sometimes swap them from a different model to get certain wheels to fit.

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