"cheap" speed and racecars?

I've seen discussions before about converting roundy round cars, spec racer fords etc.

Vs production based vehicles what kind of speed delta's/costs are we talking about?

Are they autocrossable as well as track day toys?

Any options that still retain the ability for a passenger (I like instruction)

Just wondering if when putting money into my miata if there is a point at which you can get a lot more when talking about a dedicated track toy/autox toy with something that is not production based? Or if its really just more a tastes thing.

I'm interested in this discussion but don't have much to contribute in the way of specifics.

Potential street legality might be worth considering, though. Even if it's just the ability to take a run down the street to make sure the new ... system is working. I've got a couple of cars that basically only live as track cars, but they do hit city streets occasionally.

Looking at local lap times, top times for SRFs are similar to the ITS guys, and just just a bit faster than the top Spec Miata guys. I'm most intrigued by the F500 and F600 classes--those cars seem to trade in the mid-teens (used) and are very fast indeed.

Yeah I am with you Keith. I think having it even passable on the street makes it more likely to have a passenger seat also.

I just wonder also about where you can run them etc. Like around here most track days I have never seen any sort of formula based car at a track day (no open wheel for sure) and maybe 1-2 stock cars.

But I believe in AutoX terms some of the "mod" class cars actually run way way cheaper than building a competitive street prepared or SSM street/production car

I've thought about the Thunder Roadsters with the newer aero package before for example, and now you have formula ford able to run honda fit motors

I've always wanted a Formula car, but it's nice to be able to drive to the gas station or bed in a set of brakes on the street. And...autocross is one thing, but you only want to be out on the track with other cars the same size.

Why not exocet your current miata instead?

In reply to Woody:

+1

I was out in an SRF in HPDE traffic and ... even with a lot of very experienced instructors it was a E36 M3 show. The SRF has no top end but it can out brake anything else out there and it's fast mid-corner so you are coming from waaaay back and passing at corner entry when the 'real' cars brake mostly. If the timing isn't right or you were a tad optimistic you are in the blind spot of an E92 M3 that looms over you like a skyscraper and he has no idea you are there. There is no horn. The exhaust is quiet. You have to GTFO of the way.

If you go this route and you are running in anything less than a bunch of comp lic holders... get one of those orange triangle flags on a long whip that the short bus kids used to put on their bikes in the 70s so drivers knew to give them extra room .

I can also say it pays in some of the biggest grins - the damn things are a blast to drive. Fast enough to do '21's at Summit, and rear engined so they are all throttle-steer. I have "race a competitive SRF for a whole season" on my short list of things to do when a bucket of money falls out of the sky.

chiodos wrote: Why not exocet your current miata instead?

That may be the road I eventually go. Start with a 2400 dollar miata add roll bar/brakes/maintenance/tires on original wheels/seats (about 1100 bucks) add good coil overs 1500 bucks add 15x9s and RC1's around another say 1300

This is where I am now with the car and I have owned it for 2yrs and done about 14-15 autoX events and a track day

If I keep going this route and do diff/harness/steering wheel/then start looking at power I will be to where I might consider a kit but when you do that the car is no longer a miata, has to be registered under SB100 in california, no longer qualifies for miata challenge or time attack because its a tube frame car etc. I believe it also means you end up spending at least another 12k or so and thats without deciding to do an engine swap or powered adders

Once you have 20k into what once was a miata I'd start wondering about my other options whether they are "race car" based as I mentioned here or even C5/C5 z06/C6 vette or something else based.

I am also not a fan currently of the Exocets issues with using the standard miata aftermarket suspension stuff. I know they were working on spacers etc but I'd be leaning towards the catfish at this point (those shots Keith posted of theirs is just too sexy)

Don't get me wrong I think you can build a great miata and they are obviously a fantastic platform. I just wonder about alternatives when it comes to going faster, cheaper

If you're in California, the SB-100 is a big bonus. Once you've got that, you're immune to CARB and you can do whatever you want. They're not as hard to get as legend would have you believe. It seems to me that would be huge when it comes to power adder options.

If you want to race a certain class, then obviously you have to build for that class. The Exocet is approved for some of the NASA classes, so you can still run competitively.

As for the Exocet not fitting "the standard Miata aftermarket suspension stuff", XIDA is not the only option out there! The spacers exist and are available if you want to use shocks with no droop travel, but there are other options. Our bone stock 1999 Exocet with DOT R tires and V-Maxx suspension was catching Roman's supercharged XIDA Exocet on Hoosiers (I think) at the MRLS event last year until we got to the straights - that was before he got the suspension spacers. The wheel requirements and fuel tank modifications are still real issues though.

There's a new option called the Naked Catfish that is exactly what it sounds like. You can build one of those, then add the body later. Helps spread the cost out.

Turning any street car into a track car is going to take a big chunk of cash, whether you start with a Miata or a Corvette or a BMW.

I've run on track with formula cars a few times. I can tell you that some of them are not equipped with mirrors, and are not necessarily a match for a quick Miata. I eventually had to pull into the pits to get some space because I wasn't willing to take the risk on a pass when I'd seen no indication they had any idea I was around. Probably thinking "that Miata is no match for my pure race car..." so they weren't watching The point of the story is that they're not necessarily any faster, and it sure freaked me out trying to drive near them. I wouldn't have wanted to be in their seats with my massive Miata bearing down.

A friend sold his track Miata and got some little formula car. Don't remember what it was, a prototype for a series that never really took off IIRC. No wings. I was on the track with him once and his "no brake" drill was about as fast as my Miata at the time. He eventually sold it because he couldn't really use it at track days anymore and he had no competition to race against.

I guess I'm still stuck on street legality. Seems like that's a big line you have to draw. If you want to give up the plates, I'd be looking at a modified circle track car. Parts availability is fantastic and there's a big knowledge base. Plus big power is kind of fun.

This guy built a body for an old formula vee

Keith Tanner wrote: If you're in California, the SB-100 is a big bonus. Once you've got that, you're immune to CARB and you can do whatever you want. They're not as hard to get as legend would have you believe. It seems to me that would be huge when it comes to power adder options. If you want to race a certain class, then obviously you have to build for that class. The Exocet is approved for some of the NASA classes, so you can still run competitively. As for the Exocet not fitting "the standard Miata aftermarket suspension stuff", XIDA is not the only option out there! The spacers exist and are available if you want to use shocks with no droop travel, but there are other options. Our bone stock 1999 Exocet with DOT R tires and V-Maxx suspension was catching Roman's supercharged XIDA Exocet on Hoosiers (I think) at the MRLS event last year until we got to the straights - that was before he got the suspension spacers. The wheel requirements and fuel tank modifications are still real issues though. There's a new option called the Naked Catfish that is exactly what it sounds like. You can build one of those, then add the body later. Helps spread the cost out. Turning any street car into a track car is going to take a big chunk of cash, whether you start with a Miata or a Corvette or a BMW. I've run on track with formula cars a few times. I can tell you that some of them are not equipped with mirrors, and are not necessarily a match for a quick Miata. I eventually had to pull into the pits to get some space because I wasn't willing to take the risk on a pass when I'd seen no indication they had any idea I was around. Probably thinking "that Miata is no match for my pure race car..." so they weren't watching The point of the story is that they're not necessarily any faster, and it sure freaked me out trying to drive near them. I wouldn't have wanted to be in their seats with my massive Miata bearing down. A friend sold his track Miata and got some little formula car. Don't remember what it was, a prototype for a series that never really took off IIRC. No wings. I was on the track with him once and his "no brake" drill was about as fast as my Miata at the time. He eventually sold it because he couldn't really use it at track days anymore and he had no competition to race against. I guess I'm still stuck on street legality. Seems like that's a big line you have to draw. If you want to give up the plates, I'd be looking at a modified circle track car. Parts availability is fantastic and there's a big knowledge base. Plus big power is kind of fun.

Yeah you are absolutely right the miata is great. And taking weight off something great is good too. My current suspension the FCM elite setup, which is going to be a little more autoX focused than some of the XIDA stuff for sure.

And no smog worries with SB100 is pretty sweet. My goals were to hopefully keep re-using stuff I bought (like obviously stuff would change when you take so much weight out of the car but I don't want to "waste" money on a mod that would not work later in the carslife)

The issue with nobody to race against and the complete lack of street legality are probably the two biggest issues. Even if "racing against" is just speak for comparative cars/people at HPDE events you can run with and gauge yourself against.

I wonder how much the roundy round thing is somewhat regionalized as its not near as popular out here in California although we do have dirt track ovals around

I think you can typically get more bang for your buck without production car constraints. But if sticking with track days and autox for the fun of it, I'd also want to have something street legal.

This is going to be long winded so my apologies up front. For a real race car at a track day car you'll need at least some type of sports racer for most groups as open wheelers aren't always welcome.

I was at a track day today and I drove a friends Exocet, it was pretty good, I took it out in an intermediate group, as he was driving it in the fast group, and I pretty much passed everyone. It was well a balanced and easy to drive.

Spec Racers go well but they are lacking in power. If you can run in a group with open passing then they are not a problem.

I run an F500 at Autocross and even with the road race set-up you'll still manage a top 5 finish. Properly set up for auto-x you'll spank everyone except the shifter karts BUT you can't do most track day groups

I used to take my D Sports Racer to track days and in general was 10 - 20 seconds a lap faster than the fastest street car depending on the course configuration. You can actually find an older chassis DSR for the same price as a SRF and if you run the stock bike engine the maintenance isn't horrendous. The down side is these are cars can be a bridge to far as they are faster than many drivers can cope with.

The street legal aspect is indeed a bonus. Both the Datsun and the F500 need to be trailered; if I stage everything in the garage a day or two before the event, loading up for the track can be done in as little as an hour. By contrast when I raced a showroom stock Miata I brought minimal tools and spares it took me maybe 20-30 minutes to get ready. I also daily drove the car.

My recommendation is if it doesn't already have good suspension put some on the Miata, do a moderate brake upgrade, add some power but still keep it streetable and then drive and enjoy.

Here is why I say stick to the Miata; I drive my Datsun 1200 vintage racer at track days, 1814lbs with driver and about 100 WHP. Top speed on Spring Mountian Motorsports 3.4 mile layout is 110 mph and lap times similar to good Spec Miata. Myself and a coule of other instructors in gutless wonders go out in the intermediate group. As mentioned earlier in the post I was a track day on Saturday, mygroup had about 30 cars and I was faster than about 28 of them. I should not be passing ZO6/7s, Caymen S, 911 GT-3s etc. on sticky tires, yeah I'm instructing and yeah the drivers I'm passing aren't as experienced but they would be better served to give up their 300-500 horsepower wide track wonders.

So I know this is obnoxious but if as a driver you have an instructor on board you do not need to be in a truly fast car. Kudos to anyone who asks for an instructor to ride along as feedback works wonders, please don't think I am denegrating anyone, it's just easier to hone your skills when reference points aren't rushing up on you. My preference is to at least get near the limit in what ever I'm driving. I don't want to be the guy chugging around in an old GTP car..........not that I can afford one.

A friend has a 250hp turbo Miata, it's fast and entertaining. Keep driving a Miata and improve it over time. A Miata doesn't have to be slow.

  Tom

Great post Tom, thanks for putting the time into it. I agree on being too fast to learn as a driver. My buddy has an EVO immediately bought stuff to push over 450-500 hp then went to the track and realized he cant really drive the car at stock power levels to near its limits and more power was the last thing that was going to help him develop.

re. to Tom1200's post … an acquaintance of mine has an extremely well prepared SM Evo … he built it before he was really equipped to drive it to it's limits … his brother would sometimes come to our autocrosses with his Stock class Miata.

they would co-drive in the Miata, and he explained that it was MUCH easier on the nerves to drive the Miata, than the Evo, as things happened way to quickly for him in the Evo …

he's since upped his game to the point that he TT's the Evo and posts very competitive times at autocrosses

Jaynen et al.....thanks I was worried that the post would come off the wrong way. I'm totally on board with owning "stupid fast" but at autocross and track days it can be demoralizing........I think of the Top Gear guys driving the F1 car and being worn out in half a lap

Back to the topic at hand; on my buddies Exocet I noticed something rather odd, both of our cars weigh about the same with his car having 10-15 WHP more, yet the Datsun had 5 mph more top speed. It took a second before the realization of the tires are directly the airstream......duh. He plans to get upwards of 175 whp out of it, that would make a really nice package.

I also don't think I mentioned that I too like a passenger seat in track cars; I ended up driving the Exocet becuase my friend wanted to watch me drive. I'm a steer it with the pedals driver, while he is a non trail braker and was looking for places to pick up some time. We had several good laughs. I got greedy trying to stay flat in a particular section, which a I did but it meant I arrived at a tight 90 right to fast and ended up doing a tarmac rally driving impression.....we were both laughing. Also when we came back in I asked what was up with the brake pedal height to which his reply was "OK it's not just me". It's good to have someone else to bounce ideas off of.

Finally you guys made me recall an Evo owner I had as a student, he slapped all manner of stuff on his previous cars and was getting ready to order parts for the Evo. After the first session his attitude changed he commented after seeing what could be done with the stock car he just needed to focus on driving it. My thoughts always go to watching Lewis Hamilton drive the reasonably priced car on TG.......some of the stars are pretty good club racers and Lewis was visibly faster......in a rental car.........how ugly would it be if we put him in a Miata.

Tom

Exocets are aerodynamically horrific. Not just the tires, but the exposed tubes. At Laguna Seca, they'll sit about level with a Spec Miata down the straight - the lighter weight gets the Exocet off turn 11 faster, but the aero drags it down as the speed rises. I think it would be a really good learning platform for a driver, though, as it's got a forgiving nature just like the Miata it's based on. Same with the slipperier Catfish.

Jayden isn't a pure novice with a dozen autox days and a track day under his belt. Depending on his learning curve and the maturity of his thinking, he could be well equipped to wrestle with something a bit more energetic than a stock Miata power plant.

If you are looking at the beginning of a modification run, it always helps to have a vision of the end. You mention "diff/harness/steering wheel/then start looking at power". Ask if those mods are going to make the car any more fun, or if they'll just make a bit faster. If it's not going to be any more fun and you're not racing for money, then don't do it. The harness is a safety mod, so it's exempt from this question.

At least around me, used circle track cars are plentiful.

I am stock 1.6, I just wanted to sort of do everything else before power and learn to drive it as a momentum car.

So its also open diff. Wheel is just for comfort, harness because I already have a rollbar and seats might as well plus safety.

I also want to do a bit of cooling and sort the brakes out I have sport brakes in the front but need pads with more initial bite (think I have hawk blues) and I want a prop valve.

If I get the chance to do more track time I want a hardtop but I love driving the car top down especially at autocross however my soft top is a bit ragged.

So after those things then I will look at power and have been considering rotrex SC, Ecotech swap, or FM2 turbo. The goal for me power wise is to try and maximize what I can with retaining the lovely stock 5spd

My vision of the end was a vision of a journey of "mastering" the car very stock, then getting suspension and tires, then doing a bunch of other smaller things before adding power. Then after power maybe going catfish etc.

It might be worth looking at changing the fundamental car. Even if you decide the math works well for a Miata instead of a different car, it might cost less to sell yours and pick up a 1.8 with a Torsen. Voila, there's your diff, some bigger brakes, more rear bias and a 10% power increase now and for every modification you make from now on. Bonus points for finding one with a hardtop.

That's true.

The "beat everything except the shifter karts" was a clue - why not switch to 5" wheels?

My kart

I've looked at them before. Obviously cant do HPDE, but can do kart tracks. I run BMWCCA autoX and they dont have a kart class I dont really want to do the 3 SCCA runs thing.

The surface we do have is pretty bumpy so I wonder how bad it would hurt on a kart. We have a karting association that runs at the same parking lot but I cant tell what if any of the classes are actually healthy besides the kid ones

Chaparral at autocross the Karts and the F500s are within a tenth of each other. The F500 won out for me as they don't beat you up.

Jaynen my showroom stock Miata was a 1.6 the lack of a limited slip wasn't a huge issue. I had tried some bigger sway bars for fun and at autocross that resulted in the inside wheel spinning. For brakes I used the aforementioned hawk blue pads. As for brake cooling, I never had an issue and I am notorious for putting lots heat in brake systems.

Our local SCCA events generally have between 9 and 12 runs.

Kieth, yes between the frontal area of the tires and the air molecules bouncing around through all those tubes the aero drag must rival a parachute.

Jaynen, yes , yes and yes to momentum racers. I know very well that my time spent racing a 125 GP bike has made me very aware of conserving every ounce of momentum. You'll soon find you know the RPM of every corner exit and will also cringe whenever you throwaway 50 RPMs. Once your in something with some oomph the difference will be even more noticeable.

Tom