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wlkelley3
wlkelley3 Dork
12/12/10 7:57 p.m.

How about a big NO...twice. No I won't buy the Volt and no I don't plan on buying a new car anytime soon. Just bought SWMBO a new car last Dec.

forzav12
forzav12 Reader
12/12/10 8:07 p.m.
Big ego wrote:
forzav12 wrote: never have to use gas for my commute

incorrect. The engine will run to keep you adding gas and keep it fresh.

Also note that the car is now rated for only 30 miles on electricity instead of the 50 miles as promised. Does it get the 230mpg as predicited.. nope.

I still say vapor ware.

Well, no E36 M3 it will run once in a while to cycle petrol through the system. I'd also use fuel to take an extended trip. Sheesh, talk about grasping at straws to illustrate your Volt hatred. Testers have found the range to be between 30 and 40 on pure electric. Plenty for most folks commute(mine included). Vapor ware? Hardly. Everyone from Popular Mechanics to Motor Trend have called the Volt a game changer and a "moonshot".

forzav12
forzav12 Reader
12/12/10 8:16 p.m.
GTwannaB wrote: No. I would be a 40pmg Elantra for half the price and a Leaf for local runs.

Yeah, that makes sense. Not.

Most of the naysayers are not planning(probably can't afford one regardless) on purchasing the Volt or any other new vehicle any time soon. Those promoting some tired piece of crap that gets good mileage as a serious alternative, are simply missing the point. For someone that wants a cutting edge commuter that's a real car with no range limitations, a Volt is a reasonable choice. Think about it-pull into your garage, plug it in, adjust interior climate from your phone before you even enter the garage in the morning and head off to work with all the latest tech goodies at your disposable(plus OnStar). Completely avoid the hassle of a gas station(lines, rain, idiots, paying for fuel) for pennies a day. Should you need to extend your range on any given day, the Volt is up to the task. Considering that leasing rates look very attractive, all risk of new tech are eliminated.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/12/10 9:02 p.m.

We have a nice discussion over at MotorTrend COTY thread. Please put them there.

I am not trying to discourage comments, it is just difficult to get a tally by reading comments.

Thanks!!!

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/12/10 10:53 p.m.

$32K minus your state's incentive.

So, i could get it for $28k.

Rather be half-done on a house here in S. Texas, so no, i would not buy one new.

Id buy it after it came down to $3-4k like my Insight.

Big ego
Big ego SuperDork
12/13/10 5:30 a.m.
forzav12 wrote: Well, no E36 M3 it will run once in a while to cycle petrol through the system. I'd also use fuel to take an extended trip. Sheesh, talk about grasping at straws to illustrate your Volt hatred. Testers have found the range to be between 30 and 40 on pure electric. Plenty for most folks commute(mine included). Vapor ware? Hardly. Everyone from Popular Mechanics to Motor Trend have called the Volt a game changer and a "moonshot".

Over promise, under deliver.. In the corporate world, doing such would ruin the career of an individual. I still say vapor ware. Not hatred.. I think the car would have been a game changer if it was a giant leap forward. To be honest, I see just a tiny incremental benefit over a prius. Infact, when running off of the gasoline engine, say on a long trip.... It gets worse mileage than a prius, so for people who drive distances, it is a worse option. The car only gets low 30's when running the engine. Boooooo.... GM could have done better.

Also, encouraging folks on the GRM board to lease something is like telling Creflo A. Dollar to stop ripping people off.. Ain't going to happen. Leaseing a car to save money? and be economical? ha.. Isn't that what the eco posuers do to the prius?

But.. Because you'll now accuse me of being a toyota lover and run away from this discussion... Let's do some math..

Assumptions: Volt Purchase price: $32k (after federal tax credits) Prius price $23k( both cars base models.. No tax redit applied to prius, to give it a purposeful disadvantage as part of analysis) Volt miles on electric : 30 miles Volt mpg while using the internal combustion engine: Guessed at 40mpg (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20023678-54.html) Prius mpg (51/48) For this analysis, I'll assume the cost of electricity to charge the volt = $0.. I'll also assume I plug the car in every night and use the electricity fully every morning. I'll also assume fuel prices to be $3/gal.

I have a 48 mile commute each way, which is purely highway miles. I live at the end of a highway on ramp and work at the end of one.

Miles covered by the prius per day is 96 miles @ 48mpg = 2 Gallons used... = $6 per day.

Miles covered by the Volt per day = 96 - 30(electric) = 66 miles @ 40mpg = 1.65 Gallons used = $4.95/day fuel use.

The volt has a $1.05 per day fuel savings for my commute @ a $9000 price deficit for the initial purchase price. = 8571 days of use to break even with the initial purchase price deficit.. OR 23 YEARS. Neither vehicle will last so long.

Sorry man.. The problem with the volt is that for long commutes it doesn't work and for short commutes a person is better served by a purely electric vehicle, because the range is absurdly low on electric only mode. It is the answer to a question noone asked.

If anything those who are interested in the volt are those who have poor financial analysis skills, are completely enamored with new shiny electronic things, or eco poseurs..

TJ
TJ SuperDork
12/13/10 7:29 a.m.
Big ego wrote: Sorry man.. The problem with the volt is that for long commutes it doesn't work and for short commutes a person is better served by a purely electric vehicle, because the range is absurdly low on electric only mode. It is the answer to a question noone asked. If anything those who are interested in the volt are those who have poor financial analysis skills, are completely enamored with new shiny electronic things, or eco poseurs..

[sarcasm]But they say it's a gamechanger! Do your math over again until the game changes.[\sarcasm]

I agree with you iggy. I don't see any reasonable conclusion to draw from the Volt other than it is wildly over priced for what it is. If the same car were $20k with similar tax rebates, then I MIGHT at least go look at one or think about one. At the current price it is just flat out silly.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 HalfDork
12/13/10 8:42 a.m.
Also have to point out that it is most green to reuse a car rather then get a new one (as long as the emissions of the old/older car are not silly).

I was having this discussion with the wife the other day. I wonder if there is any way to calculate the environmental benefits of keeping an older car vice buying a new "green mobile".

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
12/13/10 8:48 a.m.

What's funny is how many of you are convinced:

1) the Volt is a game changer because the Media told me so.

or

2) the Volt is less than a game changer because the Media told me so.

It's not actually out on the market yet, so we don't actually know it's impact nor its robustness. You can pretend to know, but let me point something out- there are a WHOLE LOT OF people out there who know more than you about cars, and honestly don't know how to gamble on this bet.

I've heard both sides, and honestly think both sides honest argument has merit.

If you think this is being designed to sell, well, I don't know what to say- it's not, just as it's not intended to sell hundreds of thousands for quite some time. I know almost nothing about this car, but do know and understand that. Bash GM all you want, but don't forget the BILLION dollar bet they lost on the EV1. That's a Million per car. I fogive them for hedging their bets.

Eric

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/13/10 9:37 a.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3:

Yes, all the resources your car consumed in production won't have to be consumed again, and you don't have to worry about the partial disposal.

You can work it out, (it has been done) I am just to lazy to look it up LOL

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/13/10 9:39 a.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
Big ego wrote: For this analysis, I'll assume the cost of electricity to charge the volt = $0.. I'll also assume I plug the car in every night and use the electricity fully every morning.

Where do you get this free electricity?

It was his assumption, given the Volt the benefit of the doubt and it still did not add up. Volt lost to the Prius.

Although as mentioned in the Motor Trend COTY forum it does have an iPhone ap to start it in the morning. I guess some people think remote start key fobs are just too bothersome.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/13/10 9:51 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

If you think the Volt has ANYTHING to do with the advancement of technology you are sorely mistaken.

I would say the statement that there are "there are a WHOLE LOT OF people out there who know more than you about cars" is a very arrogant and foolish statement especially on this board.

I would put myself as a mid level guy and here is my experience.

Tier 1 supplier engineer to BMW (X5 and X6 vehicles Plant 10 is a wonderful facility, that same company supplies to GM, Ford and Chrysler. They designed the interior on the new CTS coupe and the redesigned Malibu. They also perfected the process that allowed the welding of cast iron to stainless for the ford focus exhaust.)

Advanced research for American Honda (advanced vehicle controls - drive by wire and haptic interface)

and finally for the retail side I was a car salesman for 3 years.

I think I have a firm grasp of the auto industry. Called GM's failure 3 years ago. Called the auto industry implosion a year before it happened. Called Toyota's epic fail (although I missed the precise catalyst, I thought it would be the engine sludge issue on the Lexus and Camary.) 3 years before it happened.

I don't think I know that much about the industry, I just pay attention to the little things.

iceracer
iceracer Dork
12/13/10 10:17 a.m.

After all the hype is over, let's wait a year and see what happens.

nderwater
nderwater HalfDork
12/13/10 1:02 p.m.

To say that the Volt has nothing to do with the advancement of technology is pigheaded. Like the EV1 and Prius before them, the Volt and Leaf are stepping stones toward a fundamental shift in propulsion technology. The amount of R&D spent to bring these cars to market is staggering, and the next generation of electric vehicles will stand on the shoulders of these cars.

Th ongoing argument in this thread -- that the Volt's powertrain is not 'better' than the Leaf or the Prius -- is missing the point. The Volt's 'extended range' system exists because GM is betting that it's the electric configuration that most consumers will actually be willing to try.

Look at the marketplace - practically every hybrid other than the Prius is dead in the water. GM's hybrids in particular have all been huge money losers. GM needed a game changer - an electric car. But because of the enormous R&D investment the Volt has to sell in volume, and mainstream consumers just aren't willing buy a car which has only a 100 mile range. Thus, the extended-range powertrain. Like several people have commented above, it'll take at least a year before we'll be able to conclude whether GM's bet will pay off.

Tom Heath
Tom Heath Webmaster
12/13/10 1:33 p.m.
FlightService wrote: I would say the statement that there are "there are a WHOLE LOT OF people out there who know more than you about cars" is a very arrogant and foolish statement especially on this board.

I'd make that statement to almost anyone, including our staff.

The world is a very big place full of some very smart folks.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr New Reader
12/13/10 2:46 p.m.
nderwater wrote: To say that the Volt has nothing to do with the advancement of technology is pigheaded. Like the EV1 and Prius before them, the Volt and Leaf are stepping stones toward a fundamental shift in propulsion technology. The amount of R&D spent to bring these cars to market is staggering, and the next generation of electric vehicles will stand on the shoulders of these cars. Th ongoing argument in this thread -- that the Volt's powertrain is not 'better' than the Leaf or the Prius -- is missing the point. The Volt's 'extended range' system exists because GM is betting that it's the electric configuration that most consumers will actually be willing to try. Look at the marketplace - practically every hybrid other than the Prius is dead in the water. GM's hybrids in particular have all been huge money losers. GM needed a game changer - an electric car. But because of the enormous R&D investment the Volt has to sell in volume, and mainstream consumers just aren't willing buy a car which has only a 100 mile range. Thus, the extended-range powertrain. Like several people have commented above, it'll take at least a year before we'll be able to conclude whether GM's bet will pay off.

What is teh new advancement in technology? Is it the batteries? (NOT a new technology) Or is it the way they changed where some parts of the drivetrain interact with other parts of the drivetrain (again, NOT new technology).

A new way of looking at something or slightly changing it is NOT new technology.

If you break this car down to its core technologies, there is nothing new on/in it.

Why would anybody buy a hybrid at all? <-- serious question.

P.S. are these cars made to be "stepping stones toward a fundamental shift in propulsion technology" or are they "beacuse GM is betting that it's the electric configuration that most consumers will actually be willing to try"?

Those are two very different reasons to bring a car to market.

P.P.S. You can't complain that people are missing the point about the powertrain and then say that the powertrain is the main difference between this and any other hybrid.

kb58
kb58 Reader
12/13/10 2:46 p.m.

For me: No.

What has yet to be explained (in California at least) is where all the electricity is going to come from to charge millions of electric cars. Defenders say it's no problem because power is being used during "off-peak hours." While true, is there data showing what spare capacity is actually available and what that translates into per household? In the summers here, we're regularly warned of blackouts if we don't cut back power, such as turning off air-conditioning. Since it takes a lot more power to charge an electric car than is used by air-conditioners, it seems like a slow-motion train wreck is on the way.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/13/10 6:37 p.m.

I think when you guys think about technology you see a whole lot of dots and dont see antyhing thats connecting them.

Any dumbass can bolt some batteries, a motor, and a gas engine into a car. ALMOST NOOONE ON THE FREEEEAKIN PLAAANEET can beautifully, seamlessly integrate all of it to make a complete user-friendly system that anyone can use and most people would be happy using. Seriously, a lot of companies cant even get engine auto stop/start to work smoothly. It takes a whole lot of smart people with hundreds of millions of dollars at their backs to bring us a total package like the Volt. It really doesnt have crap to do with which kind of battery it uses.

So you guys can go ahead and keep thinking that any car that has a battery pack and an electric motor doesnt represent new technology, but the reality is that you have huge blind spots. In 10 years we have gone from my clunky 1g insight which honestly almost noone would enjoy driving and is horribly integrated, to a car that we can even TALK about selling 100k when it hits the full US market. The volt getting 37mpg on the gas motor right now, is a more significant car than the honda insight was getting 70 mpg back in 2000.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/13/10 6:41 p.m.
In the summers here, we're regularly warned of blackouts if we don't cut back power, such as turning off air-conditioning.

Well, i havent seen any Enron's doing down in flames lately so i guess whoever is engineering your blackouts this time is getting away with it.

This is a capitalist country, electric utilities will go where the money is just like anyone else trying to make a buck. The Volt and other grid-charged vehicles will NOT proliferate faster than utilities can build infrastructure to profit from them.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/13/10 6:50 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
In the summers here, we're regularly warned of blackouts if we don't cut back power, such as turning off air-conditioning.
Well, i havent seen any Enron's doing down in flames lately so i guess whoever is engineering your blackouts this time is getting away with it. This is a capitalist country, electric utilities will go where the money is just like anyone else trying to make a buck. The Volt and other grid-charged vehicles will NOT proliferate faster than utilities can build infrastructure to profit from them.

Electric utilities are under protectionistic legislature. You can't move in on them. You can generate but the utility itself is protected.

Big ego
Big ego SuperDork
12/13/10 6:53 p.m.
TJ wrote: [sarcasm]But they say it's a gamechanger! Do your math over again until the game changes.[\sarcasm] I agree with you iggy. I don't see any reasonable conclusion to draw from the Volt other than it is wildly over priced for what it is. If the same car were $20k with similar tax rebates, then I MIGHT at least go look at one or think about one. At the current price it is just flat out silly.

I agree with you 100%. The car provides no significant advantage to me than any other vehicle currently on the market.

In my math, I even tried to stack the deck in favor of the volt. I used $0 electricity and 40mpg while on the gas motor(some folks estimate it at 30mpg) among other things.

I think the technology of the car is cool, but not a $9k premium to its closest competitor cool...

In reply to Datsun 1500: I made assumptions and I stated them. that is all.

Twin_Cam
Twin_Cam SuperDork
12/13/10 7:06 p.m.

$32K? Do you know how many fun cars I could buy for that money?

irish44j
irish44j Dork
12/13/10 7:14 p.m.
Vigo wrote: $32K minus your state's incentive. So, i could get it for $28k. Rather be half-done on a house here in S. Texas, so no, i would not buy one new. Id buy it after it came down to $3-4k like my Insight.

you can get a house in S.Texas for $56k????

Damn, in this area that won't get you an unfinished basement.

I need to move so I can have more money for cars

irish44j
irish44j Dork
12/13/10 7:20 p.m.
FlightService wrote: . Although as mentioned in the Motor Trend COTY forum it does have an iPhone ap to start it in the morning. I guess some people think remote start key fobs are just too bothersome.

key fobs are just so 2005.....

just like turning the key in the ignition is such a hassle, so many new cars just go with a high-tech "start" button instead.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/13/10 10:27 p.m.
Electric utilities are under protectionistic legislature. You can't move in on them. You can generate but the utility itself is protected.

I was unclear, i mostly meant that if utilities that are already there saw profit they would expand their infrastructure to get their hands on it.

you can get a house in S.Texas for $56k????

A small, old, 1000 sq ft house? yeh. Actually, my in-laws got their old 1k sq ft house on 7 acres right outside San Antonio for $48k. My dad built a few new 900sqft houses on 1/4 acre lots before the housing burst, and they cost about ~$40k to build (half of that being the slab and the land) and sold for $70k brand new.

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