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Big ego
Big ego SuperDork
12/14/10 5:30 a.m.

iphone ap to start the car?

Sorry, I don't live in brooklyn, wear skinny jeans, or have trust fund.. (Ok the skinny jeans thing is kinda played out. The new thing is "heritage brands"...)

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/14/10 11:29 a.m.

3 Questions for you

Vigo wrote: . ALMOST NOOONE ON THE FREEEEAKIN PLAAANEET can beautifully, seamlessly integrate all of it to make a complete user-friendly system that anyone can use and most people would be happy using. Seriously, a lot of companies cant even get engine auto stop/start to work smoothly. It takes a whole lot of smart people with hundreds of millions of dollars at their backs to bring us a total package like the Volt. It really doesnt have crap to do with which kind of battery it uses.

Have you driven a Volt? I didn't notice where it said you did. So how do you know that?

Vigo wrote: The volt getting 37mpg on the gas motor right now, is a more significant car than the honda insight was getting 70 mpg back in 2000.

Could you explain this statement? We have plenty of gas only (I am excluding diesels to keep from weighting the scales,) cars that get that kind of fuel economy. Hell, a Pontiac Bonneville used to get 30 on the highway with that V6 in it.

Lastly, you are taking all this very seriously. Were you involved with the development, or are you just a die hard GM fan/tree hugger?

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/14/10 9:29 p.m.
Have you driven a Volt? I didn't notice where it said you did. So how do you know that?

No, but when a vast cadre of professional car testers doesnt say 'its badly integrated', you can be fairly certain it doesnt have any glaring problems. If you can find where a tester has complained about it, i will retract the statement.

Could you explain this statement? We have plenty of gas only (I am excluding diesels to keep from weighting the scales,) cars that get that kind of fuel economy. Hell, a Pontiac Bonneville used to get 30 on the highway with that V6 in it.

Sure. When Honda released the 1g insight, it was rated 60mpg hwy. Of course we have to acknowledge that the number itself is impressive. But if you look at how it did it, it really wasnt through any hybrid wizardry. When you are cruising along on the freeway getting 60mpg, you are NOT using the hi-voltage battery pack or the electric motor in any way. In fact, during those conditions the electric motor is just a significant parasitic loss because its coupled to the crankshaft of the gas motor, and the battery pack is just dead weight. The way the car gets 60 mpg is by being very light (like a geo metro), having a very tiny engine (like a geo metro) and having good aerodynamics (like many modern cars). It also has a lean-burn mode that will let the engine operate as lean as 26:1 afr under certain conditions. So, realistically the fact that the car got 60hwy mpg had nothing to do with its hybrid bits. In many ways it was just a more modern take on a geo metro, or like the new Fiat twin-air or 70mpg Mazda2 that europe is getting. In fact, its hybrid-ness is the source of a lot of its pitfalls, like herky-jerky and unpredictable electric assist/regen, sporadic a/c function due to engine auto stop/start, inconsistent and primitive regenerative braking, etc. And for all its electric motor and batteries, it could NEVER propel itself without the gas engine being on (parallel hybrid system = teh lose).

In short, all the 1g insight really delivered was a car that could have gotten the same MPG (if not performance) without its hybrid bits, with a lot of quirks and bad habits wrapped up in a package that was impractical and undesireable for most drivers. They didnt exactly set any sales records, and they gave hybrid-haters a lot to complain about (as did the prius). It was significant because it was the first hybrid and for a solid decade the hybrid with the highest absolute MPG numbers, but compared to the Volt it's technology and appeal to consumers was vastly inferior, even considered in its own time period of 10 years ago.

For the record, i own a 2001 insight and love it dearly for what it is, but im still very objective about all that it is not.

Lastly, you are taking all this very seriously. Were you involved with the development, or are you just a die hard GM fan/tree hugger?

I guess by name-calling standards thats not too bad, so foregoing a response to that, im taking it seriously because it is seriously cool. In a lot of ways i think the way people think about hybrids even 10 years on is kind of like the way people thought about electronic fuel injection back when it was new-ish. And frankly a lot of what people use to justify their dislike is based on falsehoods or a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. I dont know a WHOLE lot about hybrids yet, but i want to do what i can to drag the IQ of the hybrid conversation upwards with what experience and knowledge i do have.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/15/10 11:31 a.m.

In reply to Vigo:

I wouldn't same name calling, just wondering why you are adamantly defending a vehicle that by and large the members on this board seem as a next step and not ground breaking.

I am trying to make it logical not name calling. Where I am, and in most car circles, if someone is taking an argument as personally as you have, they tend to be a loyal follower of something, not stating an objective opinion based on fact.

Given you own an insight, I would judge you more qualified than most on what is deemed issues with hybrids, but giving that, I do not see the break through in any of your discussions.

It is probable, I am jaded and my experience and circle allow me to look at what they have done differently than you.

I just can't help but think, if they would have kept their word and delivered the car the Volt was supposed to be, it would have been what MotorTrend claims it is.

Let's revisit this in 2012 when the FCX is scheduled for mass production. :)

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
12/15/10 2:02 p.m.
FlightService wrote: Lastly, you are taking all this very seriously. Were you involved with the development, or are you just a die hard GM fan/tree hugger?

Harsh words...as worded, it sounds like you consider the only people that could possibly be impressed with the Volt to be either tree huggers or people who developed it. Seriously?
Are you sponsored by Hatorade?

I've driven the Volt. I've built hybrids. I've driven and/or climbed over any EV and hybrid I had the opportunity of. There are very few of these in the world that I'm impressed with. With that said, my top 3 are the EV1, the Leaf, and the Volt. Go drive one.

The Volt isn't available where I live yet. I'll decide if I want one when it is based on the info, price, and available competition when I'm buying. I have enough cars that I don't NEED the extended range, but to be honest i'm not keen to the styling or trim on the Leaf. I've contemplated using an old Insight to make my own EV1ish car, but I need more projects like I need another tree hugger joke. (Read: I don't)

That's a long way of saying "maybe"

Bryce

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/15/10 5:29 p.m.
just wondering why you are adamantly defending a vehicle that by and large the members on this board seem as a next step and not ground breaking.

Same reason GRM'ers drive things most other people consider piles of junk. GRM is a melting pot of people with unusual tastes the like of which is hard to find. Majority opinion doesnt make us all drive camaros or do anything else, and likewise the majority opinion of people here doesnt mean anything to me if i dont see the reason in it. Seeing the reason in it is what threads like this are for, so we can learn from each other.

Anyway, in the 7 or 8 pages of volt talk between this thread and my other one, i think most places would have resorted to worse tactics than what we've seen here. Even if the odd member here or there thinks im a fanboi, we're still better off here than most places on the internet where id be called worse, and really let loose in return.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/16/10 6:54 a.m.

In reply to Nashco:

Everyone needs another tree hugger joke, just make sure it is a funny one. Especially on vehicles whose manufacturing processes cause more environmental damage than most cars emit in their expect life. My personal snicker is all the real tree huggers that drive beetles because they are environmentally friendly. Have you seen the emissions on those things?!!?

Hatorade, come on, can you do better than that?

No I am just sick and tired of companies blatantly lying about their products. I read GMs page about it and their break throughs listed are like comparing the ride between a Lincoln and a Rolls, better yes, break through, hardly. That was the point of all this. This car was supposed to be a break through, it isn't, could've, should've, would've, isn't. Look at what is being done with the hacked Priuses (believe I am NOT a Toyota fan.) Very impressive, not a break through, but impressive.

In reply to Vigo:

Whoa that is uncalled for, people on here don't drive Camaros, they drive Miatas ;)

nderwater
nderwater HalfDork
12/16/10 11:20 a.m.

In your opinion then, what would qualify as a breakthrough?

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/16/10 12:51 p.m.

I thought he already told us? It's the fuel cell gamble Honda's been losing on for 10 years.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/16/10 1:37 p.m.

Yes a mass produced FCX would be a breakthrough,

New battery technology would have been a break through, then the extend electric range in the Volt wouldn't have been from just more batteries.

Magnetic Gears Transmission integration for fewer gear train losses.

Here is on of GM's breakthroughs that I think failed for no reason. Driverless cars that have been around since 1933!

You know breakthroughs, not re-dos.

nderwater
nderwater HalfDork
12/16/10 2:11 p.m.

I still think that you're on the wrong track in thinking that the Volt only matters if qualifies as a breakthrough technology. The issue at stake is whether it will be a breakthrough product in the marketplace. As much as you take issue with the media hype, hype may sell cars, and that's the only way electric cars can survive.

I certainly agree that it would be a breakthrough if fuel cells could be built affordably and run on a fuel which was abundant and easy to obtain - but that would be a breakthrough for humanity, not just automobiles. But by every indication, fuel cells are still a pipe dream, and I don't expect this breakthrough to come from GM.

When it comes to batteries though, the Volt and Leaf are the first mass-market cars with LiOn batteries, and the Volt's pack has a 8 Year/100,000 Mile Warranty. That's a bit of a big deal - and even Toyota is trying to catch up.

That's the first I've heard of the magnetic transmission. Like the Zero Shift transmission I've been reading about for years, I'm still not sure why these new technologies aren't showing up in vehicles. Anywhere.

In my mind, there haven't been that many real breakthrough technologies in recent automotive history. Composite materials are amazing, but still too expensive and difficult to work with for mass market automobiles. Honda's Insight brought hybrid technology to market, and then failed to make any mark on the marketplace. In fact, hybrids in general have failed to sell. Direct fuel injection has improved efficiency a small amount, but has been pretty invisible to consumers. The biggest advances have been made in the areas of electronic safety systems and on-board entertainment - things that many of us here on the GRM boards detest.

The poster formally known as 96DXCivic
The poster formally known as 96DXCivic SuperDork
12/16/10 2:21 p.m.

So much for the whole yes or no. I would say no but only because if I was going to buy a hybrid and had the money I would be buying a CRZ. Of coarse if had $32k to spend, I would probably end up with a Viper sitting in the driveway gas mileage be damned.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
12/16/10 5:22 p.m.
That's the first I've heard of the magnetic transmission. Like the Zero Shift transmission I've been reading about for years, I'm still not sure why these new technologies aren't showing up in vehicles. Anywhere.

Oh, its pretty simple. Just look at the price of rare-earth magnets. Unlike a lot of other things technology uses, they arent going to get LESS expensive if we use more of them..

Honestly, what i saw there at Magnomatics would be great for... space. Yup, space installations with moving parts with relatively low torque requirements where every time you have to send a mechanic on a road call it costs $600 million.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
12/16/10 9:48 p.m.

I need to find the manufacturer but there was a gentlemen from Australia who had a nice magnetic transmission built. Trying to market it in the automotive field, and hybrids/electrics were mentioned, but that was earlier this year. There needs to be something other than rare earth magnets.

Not saying the new packs aren't better (they are much better) but I wouldn't quote the warranty as validation of the quality. That is how Hyundai came to popularity and gained acceptance quick. The warrantied the crap out of it, fixed everything, and pushed lessons learned back to the design team. Very few companies do that as well as they did. (I am actually in aw of what old man Hyundai built and what his dream was.) I know Toyota and GM don't, Honda is to arrogant to listen, don't know enough about the internals of Ford or the new Chrysler/Fiat to have any info on it.

Breakthrough/ground breaking/what ever, if you really want to look at the Volt as a car.

I feel that it is overpriced compared to the competition, doesn't offer enough to make the price difference up. GM is still dealing with fall out from the bailout. I know die hard GM fans that want nothing to do with them anymore because of the money they asked for, I don't think an overpriced mid sized sedan is the ticket.

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