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frenchyd
frenchyd Reader
10/25/16 3:36 a.m.

I like Chevy small blocks. I prefer Jaguar V12's. Aside from that prejudice you should know all my life I've been a racer and that is the perspective I view the conflict from.

In 1974 the Corvette small block met head to head with the Jaguar V12.. S.C.C.A.'s run offs in Atlanta The best Corvettes in the country took on 2 independently prepared Jaguars. The Corvettes came in with decades of development by thousands of racers from Factory efforts to backyard guys.. However the engines had been developed in Trans Am, Can Am, NASCAR, IMSA, NHRA, Indy Car, Sprint Car, and many other venues since 1955.

Group 44 and Huffaker only had a few months to sort out their Engines and develop the chassis for racing.. In the end Group claimed 450 horsepower to Huffaker's 475.. yet there in the front of the pack were two Jaguars.. And yes The Jaguar won the run-offs that year.. Group 44 also won the I.M.S.A. title in 1977 & 1978 and again chased a Trans Am title in 1981

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
10/25/16 5:39 a.m.

Is there a question here or just a statement as to why you are conflicted?

Chevy Pros:
Cheap
Easy to find parts
cheap
almost receipe book easy to make power
cheap
common so help at the track is easy to find
cheap
V8 sound
cheap

Chevy cons:
V8 sound
common
V8 vibrations

Jag pros:
V12 smoothness
V12 sound
exclusivity

Jag Cons:
Power down compared to weight
costs
not as much support

In your examples, the Jag had a better setup/chassis and suspension. Despite all the bragging from the US/Vette/Bowtie faithful, the C3 and C4 Vette were E36 M3 in the chassis department and needed all the help it could get from under the hood to be competitive.

NickD
NickD Dork
10/25/16 7:20 a.m.

In reply to Flight Service:

That V8 sound is subjective too. I personally rank that as a pro, V8s are the best sounding engine. But yeah, same points other than that.

edizzle89
edizzle89 Dork
10/25/16 7:38 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd:

you are also talking about teams that, even though they only had a few months to sort there engine, still had a lot more money then you or I (I assume) to make it fast and reliable (the whole 'pick 2 of the 3 thing')

So really it would come down to, do you have the means to make a jag v12 push ~450 hp and still be reliable?

At the end of the day pretty much anyone who has ever done a basic engine rebuild could make a 450 hp SBC with the right combo of parts, and its always going to be easier and cheaper then getting 450 hp out of the v12.

Not trying to knock the v12, its hard to knock the sounds of a smooth running v12 at full tilt. If i had the means i would do a v12 over a SBC, but the small block will always be the easy button over the v12

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
10/25/16 7:49 a.m.

In reply to NickD:

If you notice, I put it in Pro and Con

markwemple
markwemple SuperDork
10/25/16 8:23 a.m.

In terms of sound, I hate a US v8, other then a gt40 for some reason, and all v12s are wonderful. Chevys are cheap but Im biased against them. Personally hate the old LS swap. I think either you like one or the other. Don't think many would like both. Opposite ends of the scale.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury MegaDork
10/25/16 8:26 a.m.
markwemple wrote: In terms of sound, I hate a US v8

Stefan (Not Bruce)
Stefan (Not Bruce) MegaDork
10/25/16 8:43 a.m.
markwemple wrote: In terms of sound, I hate a US v8, other then a gt40 for some reason, and all v12s are wonderful. Chevys are cheap but Im biased against them. Personally hate the old LS swap. I think either you like one or the other. Don't think many would like both. Opposite ends of the scale.

The GT40 has a 180 degree header arrangement, aka "bundle of snakes" which completely changes the sound. Much harder to package that effectively in a front engined car and its expensive/difficult to implement.

I'm not a big fan of "hating" things, but I can understand disliking or intensely disliking them. I feel that way about Harley 2-pots and Subaru flat 4's among other things.

Cotton
Cotton UberDork
10/25/16 8:49 a.m.
markwemple wrote: In terms of sound, I hate a US v8, other then a gt40 for some reason, and all v12s are wonderful. Chevys are cheap but Im biased against them. Personally hate the old LS swap. I think either you like one or the other. Don't think many would like both. Opposite ends of the scale.

I don't know many that shun one or the other. I like both and have both (v8s and v12s) along with many other types of engines. Not sure why some 'car guys' feel the need to be so single minded.

NickD
NickD Dork
10/25/16 8:52 a.m.
Cotton wrote:
markwemple wrote: In terms of sound, I hate a US v8, other then a gt40 for some reason, and all v12s are wonderful. Chevys are cheap but Im biased against them. Personally hate the old LS swap. I think either you like one or the other. Don't think many would like both. Opposite ends of the scale.

I don't know many that shun one or the other. I like both and have both (v8s and v12s) along with many other types of engines. Not sure why some 'car guys' feel the need to be so single minded.

I don't hate V12s, but I certainly don't get all weak in the knees for them. They are better sounding than other engines, for sure, like V6s. I have yet to hear a V6 that really blows me away. And yes, Chevy small blocks and LS engines may be overdone, but sometimes, when you want to hammer a nail, the best tool really is a hammer. And I'm not even a Chevy guy.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/25/16 8:58 a.m.
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Subaru flat 4's among other things.

Again, the header arrangement. With Equal length headers they don't have the charactersitic "Warble" they are known for.

Guys in the BRZ community specifically Unequal length headers on their cars to get that sound.

Stefan (Not Bruce)
Stefan (Not Bruce) MegaDork
10/25/16 9:14 a.m.
frenchyd wrote: I like Chevy small blocks. I prefer Jaguar V12's. Aside from that prejudice you should know all my life I've been a racer and that is the perspective I view the conflict from. In 1974 the Corvette small block met head to head with the Jaguar V12.. S.C.C.A.'s run offs in Atlanta The best Corvettes in the country took on 2 independently prepared Jaguars. The Corvettes came in with decades of development by thousands of racers from Factory efforts to backyard guys.. However the engines had been developed in Trans Am, Can Am, NASCAR, IMSA, NHRA, Indy Car, Sprint Car, and many other venues since 1955. Group 44 and Huffaker only had a few months to sort out their Engines and develop the chassis for racing.. In the end Group claimed 450 horsepower to Huffaker's 475.. yet there in the front of the pack were two Jaguars.. And yes The Jaguar won the run-offs that year.. Group 44 also won the I.M.S.A. title in 1977 & 1978 and again chased a Trans Am title in 1981

Sure about that?

Looks like it wasn't until 1975 that Tulius and co were able to beat the Corvettes at the Runoffs (or Champion Sparkplugs Road Racing Championship as it was known then):

http://www.virhistory.com/cars/arrc/1975-res.htm

Basically they showed up without much development time, lost to more experienced teams/had some bad racing luck, worked on the cars for a year while campaigning them and when they came back, they were much better. Shocking.

1974 Showdown

A brief history of the Bill Jobe Corvette (which wasn't a 1974 model with its smog restricted V8):

1969 BP Corvette

An excerpt from a brief history of Group 44 racing:

Bob Tullius, Group 44

Into the ’70s Tullius and Group 44 raced a variety of British Leyland cars including the TR4, TR250, TR6 and GT6, adding to the trophy case with success in SCCA regional and national events. But as the TR6 became less competitive in its class, Group 44 looked to the V12-powered Jaguar XKE in the B Production class. It took time to convince Jaguar to take the car racing, but the company finally decided to back Group 44 on the East Coast and Joe Huffaker on the West Coast.

It took Fuerstenau and crew chief, Lanky Foushee, 3500 hours to turn the E-Type into a racer. In its first race in 1974, Tullius was leading at Watkins Glen with three laps to go when the gear shift lever broke off in his hand. But he won the next five races in a row and just barely missed the championship win.

The following year, Tullius had to face off against Huffaker Engineering’s factory-backed XKE at the SCCA Runoffs. Lord Donald Stokes, managing director of British Leyland, came to witness the showdown. But the other XKE met its demise on the pace lap, and Tullius went on to take the championship.

Tullius then took Jaguar to another series, SCCA Trans-Am racing. They claimed the season championships in 1977 and 1978 in an XJS.

Stefan (Not Bruce)
Stefan (Not Bruce) MegaDork
10/25/16 9:17 a.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Subaru flat 4's among other things.
Again, the header arrangement. With Equal length headers they don't have the charactersitic "Warble" they are known for. Guys in the BRZ community specifically Unequal length headers on their cars to get that sound.

Yeah, and? That wasn't the point. Much like the GT40, in terms of how often you hear them, I see and hear more of the WRX and STi hard-parkers club members than I do of the Frisby twins. The Frisby is an outlier. Much like the SVX, etc.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
10/25/16 11:05 a.m.

A LeMans GT40 just had a 289, same as a Mustang, so...?

chandlerGTi
chandlerGTi UberDork
10/25/16 11:50 a.m.

Welcome back mguar

pres589
pres589 UberDork
10/25/16 11:56 a.m.

In reply to Appleseed:

Some used 427's like what was used in NASCAR as well as the 289.

kanaric
kanaric Dork
10/25/16 12:58 p.m.

I am not a huge v8 fan either. I prefer straight 6 engine and SOME V6 engines sound. V10s as well, they actually might be #1 for me.

However I wouldn't say v8 is a con lol. It is one of the better sounding engines.

A LeMans GT40 just had a 289, same as a Mustang, so...?

He must like how long tube headers sound or something lol.

GTXVette
GTXVette Reader
10/25/16 1:07 p.m.

The Lemans winners were 7 litre,

pres589
pres589 UberDork
10/25/16 1:37 p.m.

In reply to GTXVette:

Except when they weren't;

'68 race results

'69 race results

slefain
slefain PowerDork
10/25/16 1:41 p.m.

The proper answer is Chevy V12:

stuart in mn
stuart in mn UltimaDork
10/25/16 2:05 p.m.
slefain wrote: The proper answer is Chevy V12:

That's a GMC V12 - not bad if you need a ton of torque at 2000rpm in a big truck, not so good if you're talking race cars. They weigh about 40 million pounds.

oldtin
oldtin PowerDork
10/25/16 2:27 p.m.

So you're saying a jag v12 has been competitive in about 3 of the last 45 years - with those 3 years happening over 35 years ago?

GTXVette
GTXVette Reader
10/25/16 2:37 p.m.

My bad on the lemans wins. 3 wins in 45 years is better than either team in the World series.

yupididit
yupididit HalfDork
10/25/16 5:26 p.m.

Yall are funny

markwemple
markwemple SuperDork
10/25/16 5:30 p.m.
Cotton wrote:
markwemple wrote: In terms of sound, I hate a US v8, other then a gt40 for some reason, and all v12s are wonderful. Chevys are cheap but Im biased against them. Personally hate the old LS swap. I think either you like one or the other. Don't think many would like both. Opposite ends of the scale.

I don't know many that shun one or the other. I like both and have both (v8s and v12s) along with many other types of engines. Not sure why some 'car guys' feel the need to be so single minded.

So I have to like the sound of a v8 to be a car guy. WTF! We all have opinions. I also hate the sound of a Merc v8. Audi and BMW v8s are ok, except the BMW V8 in the current US endurance races.

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