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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Chracteristics of a good snow car (not a what car thread)

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Dec. 5, 2010 8:34 p.m. tuna55 Dork

curtis73 wrote:

patgizz wrote:

rwd with snows. preferably caprice wagon. a 91-96 wagon with snows is unstoppable and has taken me past many ditched 4x4 suv's

One of my best was an 86 Caprice with posi.

One of the more compelling factors in snow performance is the weight of the vehicle vs with width of the tires. Light car plus wide tires equals snowshoes. You ride on top and have a terrible time getting traction. Heavy car plus skinny tires equals hello pavement.

Many argue that FWD is superior in snow. IMHO, those people have fallen for the propaganda solicieted by Lee Iacocca and the K-car. Snow performance is a function of being able to get moving, being able to maximize traction on both axis positive and negative, and how the vehicle reacts when traction is lost.

I personally prefer RWD because it separates the drive wheels from the steering wheels. If you lose traction with the front wheels in a FWD car, you also loose steering. Try it in a parking lot some snowy day. Drive along in a straight line, floor the pedal to make it lose traction, and you can turn lock to lock without appreciably affecting the direction of the car.

I would list these factors as my choices for snow vehicles:
- RWD or AWD. not 4wd or FWD
- automatic (for the elasticity of control you typically have over the application of torque to the wheels)
- relatively skinny tires so that the contact patch is oriented longitudinally to the car.
- no traction control... at least not until they make it better.

A second - on all counts. Skinniest tires that you can find in a very good snow pattern with a good heater make the best difference. ABS is fine if you're serious about just driving, but without is way more fun and can actually help if you think like Isaac Newton when you're driving.
Dec. 5, 2010 8:42 p.m. Big ego SuperDork

weight + good skinny snow tires..

I like fwd or 4x4's in the snow because thats when I know how to drive in the snow. Much like racing, skill and familiarity w/the equipment are the two biggest helps. I also like manual trans more than anything. My automatic ranger swore me off of automatic trans light rear end vehicles in the snow.
Dec. 5, 2010 8:52 p.m. thestig99 New Reader

My requirements when I was winter beater shopping: Cheap, inspectable, manual transmission, able to use my 195-65-15 studded Hakka 2's, and in a cosmetic condition where I just don't care. And preferably Swedish.

Ended up with a $600 1996 Saab 900SE 2.0t/5spd. Biggest complaints: heat takes forever, leather seats with heaters that don't work. Favorite part? I completely don't care. Go ahead and back into it... you insurance can pay for mods for the 9k :D
Dec. 5, 2010 8:54 p.m. irish44j Dork

meh....Finland gets about the same annual snowfall as central New York.

edit: Big Ego ninja edited
Dec. 5, 2010 9:00 p.m. Big ego SuperDork

irish44j wrote:

meh....Finland gets about the same annual snowfall as central New York.

edit: Big Ego ninja edited

ohh I deleted it by accident. Nokians are awesome...

Yes. I know all about central and western NY snowfall. I went to school in rochester and my wife was born in Irondequoit. I've driven through numerous closures of 90 and 81 to get to school or back home. That's always fun. The statey's make you get off the highway then you putz around on back roads until you find a way back on the highway.
Dec. 5, 2010 9:19 p.m. irish44j Dork

Big ego wrote:

irish44j wrote:

meh....Finland gets about the same annual snowfall as central New York.

edit: Big Ego ninja edited

ohh I deleted it by accident. Nokians are awesome...

Yes. I know all about central and western NY snowfall. I went to school in rochester and my wife was born in Irondequoit. I've driven through numerous closures of 90 and 81 to get to school or back home. That's always fun. The statey's make you get off the highway then you putz around on back roads until you find a way back on the highway.

lol yeah....my family is from Rochester actually and a good family friend teaches at RIT, so we hear alot about the snow there. I've only been up there once or twice in the winter, and always seemed to miss the big storms :(
Dec. 5, 2010 9:33 p.m. NGTD HalfDork

A few years ago in the Winter Nav rallies around Ontario there was a guy that used to run consistantly at the top. FWD Toyota Tercel on little skinny tires. Used to beat fleets of Subaru's.

Light weight, skinny tires (Snow or Ice tires depening on what you get more of) and FWD/AWD makes a pretty good combo. Try to go -1 on your tire combo. I am taking my wife's new Golf from 205/55R16's to 195/65R15's for winter tires.

But I did pick up a 97 Subaru last summer for winter hoonage! I was out in it tonight - fresh 6" of snow FUNNN!
Dec. 5, 2010 9:38 p.m. Clarty New Reader

This car, with a set of Hakkapeliittas was wonderful in the snow. Stick shift & RWD equals mirth-a-plenty!
Dec. 5, 2010 10:16 p.m. novaderrik HalfDork

i got to do some back to back tire testing on my 86 Camaro today. i've heard that 80's Camaros generally suck in the snow, but it's what i've got and i can't afford anything else...

there has been about 4" of fresh snow over the last few days on top of a nice layer of ice. a friend plowed my paved driveway, but it's still got 1/2" of snow on top of the ice. the city hasn't plowed any streets in town.

with the 245/50/16 Fuzion ZR1 tires, it would barely get out of my driveway, and forget about driving over 20mph on the street with any hope of stopping or turning.

i swapped on a different set of rims with some generic mismatched and half worn out 225/60/16 all season passenger car tires onto it and took it for a drive. it actually has decent traction- about like the Fuzions in heavy rain. i can stop, go, and turn on the unplowed and icy streets without too much drama, and even start out on slight uphill grades.

so the point of all this is that tires seem to be rather important- they are, after all, what connects the car to the ground. i was looking at some studdable snow tires yesterday- i think a set of 215/65/15 dedicated snows on that set of Monte Carlo SS wheels i've got laying around would make for a very good winter combo- even for a Camaro.
Dec. 5, 2010 10:19 p.m. RoosterSauce Reader

Best snow vehicle I have is a 2wd pickup truck with a locker and one bald front tire. I would put tires on it, but money. Yeah. It's fun to go, but stopping and turning is meh...
Dec. 6, 2010 5:36 a.m. Big ego SuperDork

I think to see what makes a good snow car you should look to the rally snow cars. Skinny wheels and FWD or AWD.

RWD has gone away in rally, cept for some vintage events and some real nutters. If it was superior in snow or mud or sand or gravel... You'd see less GTI's and more mustang/rx7's out there. Yes I know they are there, but........

so thats the question, if people here thing RWD is so superior in rally type conditions, why isn't there more of it used?
Dec. 6, 2010 6:51 a.m. 1988RedT2 HalfDork

I agree that snow tires can make nearly anything a good winter car. I had a '76 Olds Cutlass that was a NJ transplant to here in VA, and it came with snows. With those tires on, it would get around pretty good. Without them, it was useless. Despite an underwhelming lack of power from the smogged out Olds 350, that thing would swap ends on a damp road without even trying.

My old ACVW Super Beetle was fun in snow. Having some weight over the drive wheels never hurts. That thing had phenomenal traction, even with AS tires.

My current snow choice is my '85 C-30 dooley. Only 2WD, but it seems to roll through deep snow and the extra set of tires digging in back there moves it along. Stopping and turning are iffy. I goes, but I goes slowly.

Bad thing about living in the southland is that you'll never spring for a set of tires that you'd only use for a week or two per year, at most.
Dec. 6, 2010 10:36 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

JtspellS wrote:

EVERY CAR STOPS THE SAME IN SNOW!!!!

The reason of caps is because i like being loud when i'm wrong

fixed.

even using the same test vehicle, with the same brand and model of tire, changing only the size of the tire can change the stopping performance on a given surface.
Dec. 6, 2010 10:43 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork
to the OP, here's my list of desired winter traits for a car, in order of importance:
- winter tires, sized appropriately for the car (ie the skinniest tires that will carry the weight)
- kick-ass defroster (i've driven in freezing rain / snow where even though there was enough grip to go 60+ mph, i didn't have enough defroster to keep the windshield clear above 40 mph. every time a big truck passed me, i'd drive in their wake until they kicked up enough salty slush to melt the ice that was building up on my car)
- kick-ass heater
- enough ground clearance for the conditions
- good driving position / comfortable seat
Dec. 6, 2010 10:43 a.m. Jay_W HalfDork

Driver proficiency, snowtires, light weight, and awd, in that order. Since I am only somewhat driver proficient, I just looooove my old Madzog protege in the snow. More wheelbase and less weight than a GTX, it's the best snow car I've ever driven. The only improvement I could ask for would be a limitedslip front diff to match the other two, but ain't no such thing. As it is it pulls hard enough on snow to put your head back in the seat... Them who say awd is no help slowing down, either haven't driven one in snow or don't know how. Engine braking is twice as effectrive for one thing, and being able to apply torque to both ends of the car give you all kinds of options for changing direction which helps get out of that stop at all costs situation in the first place. Like has been pointed out, if awd weren't that much of an advantage, how come 2wd disappeard from WRC when the Quattro came out...
Dec. 6, 2010 10:58 a.m. turbo2256 New Reader

My favorite car in the snow was my 69 6 cyl Mustang. Trans am style suspension, 275 front and 295-50 15s rear. A Franklin quick change rear with a spool. Nothing could eat through the snow like this car. I often was the first car down the street with this ride on unplowed roads with my niebours following. Raced 4 weel drive trucks in a foot of new snow and passesd them. One time went down a entrance ramp embankment about 2" of ice(turned the wheel to fast). I let the car go down the embankment. Could have turned back up the hill sooner but remembering the dranage ditch half way down might flip me if I turned at the wrong point. I rode it to the bottom. Then turned the car around put it in 2nd gear and went right back up the ice covered hill and back on to the ice covered road like it was nothing. A lot of this I also credit to the original tread pattern that came with the first TA BFG radials. As after replacing them with the next tread style they didnt do as well. The latest pattern even worse. Weight bias was also to the rear because of the light 200 6 and the quick change rear being much heaver than the engine.
Dec. 6, 2010 11:18 a.m. tuna55 Dork

novaderrik wrote:

i got to do some back to back tire testing on my 86 Camaro today. i've heard that 80's Camaros generally suck in the snow, but it's what i've got and i can't afford anything else...

there has been about 4" of fresh snow over the last few days on top of a nice layer of ice. a friend plowed my paved driveway, but it's still got 1/2" of snow on top of the ice. the city hasn't plowed any streets in town.

with the 245/50/16 Fuzion ZR1 tires, it would barely get out of my driveway, and forget about driving over 20mph on the street with any hope of stopping or turning.

i swapped on a different set of rims with some generic mismatched and half worn out 225/60/16 all season passenger car tires onto it and took it for a drive. it actually has decent traction- about like the Fuzions in heavy rain. i can stop, go, and turn on the unplowed and icy streets without too much drama, and even start out on slight uphill grades.

so the point of all this is that tires seem to be rather important- they are, after all, what connects the car to the ground. i was looking at some studdable snow tires yesterday- i think a set of 215/65/15 dedicated snows on that set of Monte Carlo SS wheels i've got laying around would make for a very good winter combo- even for a Camaro.

My '81 Camaro made it through 2-3 winters in Syracuse with huge knobby things. I always got up and left before the plows came through, if it's any indication. The only times it ever got stuck was in a very sloped driveway just doing a three point turn and when a deer ran into the wheel (really, there was fur stuck in the rim/tire interface) and pushed it into a ditch. You'll be fine. They like to rotate a bit quickly compared to a truck or something, but as long as you're awake you'll be just fine.
Dec. 6, 2010 11:19 a.m. tuna55 Dork

NGTD wrote:

A few years ago in the Winter Nav rallies around Ontario there was a guy that used to run consistantly at the top. FWD Toyota Tercel on little skinny tires. Used to beat fleets of Subaru's.

Light weight, skinny tires (Snow or Ice tires depening on what you get more of) and FWD/AWD makes a pretty good combo. Try to go -1 on your tire combo. I am taking my wife's new Golf from 205/55R16's to 195/65R15's for winter tires.

But I did pick up a 97 Subaru last summer for winter hoonage! I was out in it tonight - fresh 6" of snow FUNNN!

I put 185/70s on my full size pickup - lb/sq-in for the win!
Dec. 6, 2010 11:28 a.m. DaveEstey Reader

I can't wait for snow this year. After years of FWD and $$$ snow tires I'm now turbo charged and AWD with a rear bias.

I grew up with my parents teaching me how to slide Subarus around and now I can finally go back to my roots. Even my drivers ed teacher had us build a snow man in a parking lot and then practice avoidance with it.

No I'm not buying snow tires.
Dec. 6, 2010 11:55 a.m. ReverendDexter SuperDork

Probably just reiterating, but after my experience growing up in the north Sierras, the attributes I want for a vehicle I'm gonna drive in the snow frequently are skinny-as-possible snow tires, good weight balance, stick shift, awesome defroster, good wiper blades (the newish single-spring kind), RainX, and being beater enough that I don't care if I plow through a snow bank. 4-light setups are a no-no (snow accumulates on the set you're not using). I prefer RWD over FWD, but I don't honestly feel it matters if you have a balanced car.

Best snow car I ever had was my AE86 SR-5.

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