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ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 8:05 a.m.

Is trying to use the same car for RallyCross and semi-frequent track days a bad idea?

I want to get more involved in both these areas, and it occurs to me that I want to use a relatively cheap car for both due to the risk and wear involved. So, can I use the same cheap car for both?

If so, what RWD, ~$3K cars should I be looking at?

gearheadmb
gearheadmb Dork
3/16/17 8:14 a.m.

As for what car, miata with a hard top, bmw 3 series, rx7 seems to be answer for rwd rally and should make fine track rats.

As for one car to do both jobs, if its staying stock i dont see why not, you just want second set of wheels and tires. If you are modding it most of the rallycross suspension mods (raised ride height, removing sway bars) are counterproductive for track driving.

EvanB
EvanB UltimaDork
3/16/17 8:21 a.m.

I would do a stock class E36 or maybe E46.

wae
wae Dork
3/16/17 8:24 a.m.

It really will depend on which one of those functions you want to compromise by how much.

A great track car will be down low, very highly sprung, and have splitters and other low-down aero things all of which won't do you any favors on a typical rallycross course. A great rallycross car will be up a little higher, not be as worried about weight, not have any hanging-down bits, and have a much softer suspension.

If you really want a track car that you can take on a rallycross course, you're going to have more issues. If, however, you want a rallycross car that you can take on the track, the compromises will make you slower on the track but won't break stuff.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 8:29 a.m.

I forgot to mention--I'm not worried about being competitive or fast in either endeavor.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 8:30 a.m.

In reply to gearheadmb:

We're talking FC RX-7?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperDork
3/16/17 8:32 a.m.

In reply to ShadowSix:

Whether or not he is, that's what I'm here to recommend. Between myself and moxnix, that platform has proven to be nearly unkillable- mine took about 30 stage rallies to nuke the engine, and even then it finished while running on one rotor. Parts are cheap when you do manage to break them.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb Dork
3/16/17 8:59 a.m.

In reply to ShadowSix:

Fb or fc. I don't follow them so i don't know how nice of one you can get for $3000 but i know they seem to be quite capable in rallycross.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
3/16/17 9:00 a.m.

Those are two strongly conflicting goals in terms of car setup, but if you don't care about being fast, just set it up for Rallycross and drive it around the track like a rally car in a tarmac super-special-stage.

moxnix
moxnix HalfDork
3/16/17 9:03 a.m.

Tracks tend to frown on having big clods of dirt falling off your car on the way around the track.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 10:15 a.m.

In reply to moxnix

Good point.

I have done RallyCross in the past and it's really hard on a car. Stuff breaks in a few events that would last years in the street. If I get a dual purpose car I will have to do a pretty detailed inspection for safety purposes after RallyCross events anyway, so it won't be much additional trouble to break out the pressure washer during those inspections.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 10:17 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote: just set it up for Rallycross and drive it around the track like a rally car in a tarmac super-special-stage.

This is pretty much the thought in my head... I've been to Rally Deutschland, which is mostly or entirely tarmac.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SuperDork
3/16/17 10:22 a.m.

FWIW, my FC on HotBits rally suspension with no swaybars was very amusing on pavement. Turn-in was excellent, and while the cornering limits were sort of low with the higher than stock ride height, it would roll a bit and settle into its' sweet spot, at a nice 10-15 degree slip angle.

NorseDave
NorseDave New Reader
3/16/17 10:28 a.m.

I've been mulling a similar issue, with similar goals. Not concerned about being competitive, just having fun. What about just swapping springs out - a tall, softer set for rallyx, and a shorter, stiffer set for track? Depending on the car's suspension setup, this may be way more of a pain than anyone wants. In my case, the springs are separate from the shocks, so it seems like a somewhat decent option. Thoughts?

Kylini
Kylini Dork
3/16/17 10:40 a.m.

You can rallycross with stiff suspension. You just might regularly blow your shocks. Changing heights and reconnecting sway bars doesn't take much time between events.

rslifkin
rslifkin Dork
3/16/17 10:47 a.m.

I'll agree, rallycross with stiff suspension isn't a big deal as long as the shocks can handle it. And it can put you at a big advantage on courses with faster slaloms, etc. as the car will be a lot more nimble and less floppy at speed.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
3/16/17 12:37 p.m.
gearheadmb wrote: In reply to ShadowSix: Fb or fc. I don't follow them so i don't know how nice of one you can get for $3000 but i know they seem to be quite capable in rallycross.

They suck on track and rallycross without a lot of work, and decent ones are getting hard to find for $3k unless you're buying a ragged out POS with a lost-interest partial V8 swap. Spec7/Pro7 ate up all the cheap ones.

For the money, you're better off getting an E36 325i, IMO, If rear drive is a must.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse SuperDork
3/16/17 1:57 p.m.

In reply to ShadowSix:

I currently Do this exact thing to my '85 celica. I have two sets of suspension. It is solid axle so swapping the OEM shocks and springs is a breeze. For the front Mac struts I have complete uprights that have the rotor and everything right there. It's literally three nuts on the shock tower and two 17mm on the ball joint, then a 12mm to flip the clipper off the rotor. A buddy and I can swap rally to track in about an hour and do it AT THE TRACK. People said it couldn't be done. I know that it can.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
3/16/17 2:13 p.m.

WRX?

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
3/16/17 2:19 p.m.

In reply to Trackmouse:

Do you need to adjust the front alignment?

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 2:34 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: WRX?

Not interested in AWD for RallyCross, SUPER not interested in AWD for track duty.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Dork
3/16/17 3:58 p.m.

In reply to Trackmouse:

I do love the way that generation of the Celica. Not inspired by the 22R though.

loosecannon
loosecannon HalfDork
3/16/17 4:17 p.m.

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/loosecannon/media/586443cd61892564930129a6610b0c63_zpshq1m6jgp.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/loosecannon/media/volkswagen-beetle_zpsdp4wqfz2.jpeg.html][/URL]

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
3/16/17 4:27 p.m.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote: In reply to ShadowSix: Whether or not he is, that's what I'm here to recommend. Between myself and moxnix, that platform has proven to be nearly unkillable- mine took about 30 stage rallies to nuke the engine, and even then it finished while running on one rotor. Parts are cheap when you do manage to break them.

Not that I'll argue with Chris's points about the Miata or RX7, but....

I'll just say what he knows I'm gonna say: e30. Mine has won about 95% of the Mod RWD rallycrosses it's entered in the last 5 years with pretty much no mechanical or suspension issues whatsoever (oh, and three stage rallies completed). And I'm not that great a driver, trust me. Other people have actually beaten me in it. And our AER/Chump e30 has done the same (well, completed in the top 20% of the field usually) for 3-4 years of enduro road racing. For $5k you can build an e30 pretty solidly and still have enough money left for two sets of wheels/tires (one for track/street, one for rallycross) and two sets of suspension (aka just switch the springs and reattach the swaybars). And you can haul four tires in the trunk and all your track stuff. Parts everywhere, always plenty of e30s at the track with spares, etc etc.

e36 is not a bad idea but needs some chassis reinforcement to hold up to rallycross.

e36 318ti is almost ideal....all the utility of the e30 (and e30 rear suspension and chassis mount strength) - actually more utility due to the hatchback - and the more refined interior from the e36. Yeah, it's a bit buzzy for long highway cruising as Chris will tell you, but it's a well-balanced car. If I was starting a build from a stock car today, I'd pick a 318ti over my current e30, I think.

Miata is a bit quicker and more fun on track, and quicker in stock trim at rallycross (though not necessarily in mod trim), but you definitely lose the utility/carry all your gear aspect unless you tow a trailer or something.

RX7 as Chris noted can do well. I don't personally think it's faster than an e30 in either motorsport (Moxnix is just an amazing driver that could probably win in a forklift), but then again I'm scared of magic triangles.

e30, e36, Miata, RX7...all are competitive and fun cars at both types of motorsport, IMO. And the way to build any of them is pretty well-documented for either motorsport as well (just look in the GRM build section).

This weekend's DC rallycross (with one of the best RWD groups in the country) has 12 or 13 e30s signed up (out of about 20 total RWD cars, most of the others being Miatas).

or look at results from various events. Here's last year's East Coast Rally-x championships. A bunch of cars very evenly matched, within fractions of a second of each other (and two on that list are national champions)

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
3/16/17 4:32 p.m.
GameboyRMH wrote: Those are two strongly conflicting goals in terms of car setup, but if you don't care about being fast, just set it up for Rallycross and drive it around the track like a rally car in a tarmac super-special-stage.

exactly. And reattach your swaybars so you don't look like this

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