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DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/23/15 10:25 p.m.

What are the most common handling myths you know? Body roll causing weight transfer is the first that comes to my mind.

pinchvalve
pinchvalve MegaDork
12/23/15 10:30 p.m.

100% traction (meaning zero percent slip) is the best for handling/acceleration.

Hungary Bill
Hungary Bill UltraDork
12/23/15 11:08 p.m.

Firmer is gooder

TR7
TR7 New Reader
12/23/15 11:42 p.m.

Nevar 2 low.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/15 11:43 p.m.

A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

Also, lowering the ride height causes tire rub.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic UltimaDork
12/23/15 11:48 p.m.

"Design X is the only way to go" You can make almost anything handle if you put enough work in it. The Porsche 911 seemed to get by alright with struts and trailing arms. Lotus experimented with a solid axle (front and rear!) F1 car in the late 60s.

Kylini
Kylini HalfDork
12/24/15 2:08 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: Also, lowering the ride height causes tire rub.

Well, yeah. I can't run my snow tires while slammed or my tread rubs off.

I don't have a contribution because I'm firmly (heh) in the firmer is betterer(est) camp.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper UltimaDork
12/24/15 4:35 a.m.

The tire pressure on the sidewall or door frame is the perfect pressure for best handling.

Mazdax605
Mazdax605 UltraDork
12/24/15 5:32 a.m.

If you shake it more than twice, you're playing with it...

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
12/24/15 5:50 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

You have customers who run no bars?

That's some super spotty logic, but I've seen some pretty interesting evidence that swaybars do lower the total mechanical grip of a system.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/24/15 6:57 a.m.

Understeer is a car problem and can't be a driver problem.

Understeer is slow.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
12/24/15 7:04 a.m.

are you saying that understeer ISN'T slow ...

though I completely agree that understeer isn't JUST a car setup problem ...

EvanB
EvanB UltimaDork
12/24/15 7:05 a.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

You have customers who run no bars?

That's some super spotty logic, but I've seen some pretty interesting evidence that swaybars do lower the total mechanical grip of a system.

I have bought things from FM and I run no bars on my rallycross Miata so I guess he does.

trucke
trucke Dork
12/24/15 7:06 a.m.

More decals = better handling

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
12/24/15 7:06 a.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

You have customers who run no bars?

That's some super spotty logic, but I've seen some pretty interesting evidence that swaybars do lower the total mechanical grip of a system.

The myth is a massive oversimplification of a real possibility...it's true that sway bars can reduce longitudinal grip, making wheelspin or brake lockup on the inside wheel more likely. Sway bars reduce body roll partly by pulling upward on the inside suspension after all. But a stiffer bar won't always result in less longitudinal grip and could even increase it depending on how the rest of the suspension is set up...keeping the car from skating on the shoulders of the tires also has some positive effect on longitudinal grip.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/24/15 7:12 a.m.
EvanB wrote:
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

You have customers who run no bars?

That's some super spotty logic, but I've seen some pretty interesting evidence that swaybars do lower the total mechanical grip of a system.

I have bought things from FM and I run no bars on my rallycross Miata so I guess he does.

I think half your car is from FM.

Mike
Mike Dork
12/24/15 7:27 a.m.

Heavier=more traction, therefore better performance

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UberDork
12/24/15 7:44 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

And the blanket advice: if your car is understeering, you need a bigger rear bar!

DaewooOfDeath wrote: You have customers who run no bars?

FWIW, a LOT of nationals prepped or nationals-winning autox Miatas, BMWs, S2000s, etc. all run without rear bars.

I rarely see a no-bar car though.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/24/15 7:51 a.m.
ProDarwin wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

And the blanked advice: if your car is understeering, you need a bigger rear bar!

More like if your car is understeering you need a bigger pair, and enter the corners later and with more speed...

flatlander937
flatlander937 Reader
12/24/15 8:49 a.m.

Stiffer springs up front will remove grip up front.

Not so on a FWD strut car it seems.

The national Mazda2 competitors were all running similar setups(500-550lb front, 600-650lb rear with stock front and bigger rear bars).

Biggest problem was power down out of corner(yes even with 115ish HP... Ha-ha).

Everyone was skeptical about my idea of no sway bars(at least no front anyway).. But it turns out 700# front springs not only helped putting power down, it has added noticeable mid corner grip up front. It keeps traction over bumpy pavement/concrete so much better too because its not trying to twist the chassis via bars.

It adds grip by keeping the contact patch happy mainly(less camber loss).

We're all still playing with rear spring vs rear bar. It seems something 500-600 may be best and the bar is yet to be determined.

Daily driving on 700/550 currently, they are 0.97 motion ratios front and rear for reference.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/24/15 8:58 a.m.
Mike wrote: Heavier=more traction, therefore better performance

Unless we're talking land speed racing.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
12/24/15 9:06 a.m.
trucke wrote: More decals = better handling

I thought that more decals = more hp ... didn't realize that they helped with handling also

Stefan (Not Bruce)
Stefan (Not Bruce) MegaDork
12/24/15 9:08 a.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: A stiff sway bar means less traction at that end, so no sway bars gives you the most traction!

You have customers who run no bars?

That's some super spotty logic, but I've seen some pretty interesting evidence that swaybars do lower the total mechanical grip of a system.

Steve Holscher won several AutoX championships with his X-1/9 and MR-2 sans sway bars. I look at them as a fine-tuning device, not as the primary source of spring rate or body control.

kb58
kb58 Dork
12/24/15 10:23 a.m.

That 50/50 weight distribution = best handling.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/24/15 10:23 a.m.
flatlander937 wrote: Stiffer springs up front will remove grip up front. Not so on a FWD strut car it seems.

It's one of those blanket statements that only works within parameters.

I greatly reduced understeer on my Volvo by going from ~100lb front springs to ~200lb. Now I can dive hard into corners, basically throwing the weight of the car on the outside front tire on corner entry, without riding the bumpstops which is instant grip loss.

With the softer front springs, I had to make driving choices that would result in heavy understeer.

This ties in to my earlier comment with respect to understeer being a driver error. Sometimes the car requires that you drive that way.

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