"Perfectly good" is relative. 150hp is a long way from 300hp and getting that kind of power out of a tiny heavily modified 4-cylinder reliably isn't likely.
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April 15, 2011 11:22 a.m. dculberson Reader
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April 15, 2011 11:22 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
Travis_K wrote:
Am i the only one that is rather unimpressed by everyone frantically cramming chevy LS engines into non chevy cars that came with perfectly good engines to begin with? Sometimes it turns out well, but most of the time not really.
Nope. You're not the only ones.
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April 15, 2011 11:24 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
dculberson wrote:
"Perfectly good" is relative. 150hp is a long way from 300hp and getting that kind of power out of a tiny heavily modified 4-cylinder reliably isn't likely.
"Reliably" is also relative.
Especially in a day and age when you can buy cars with 300hp 4-cylinders with a warranty.
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April 15, 2011 11:27 a.m. Javelin SuperDork
Or 750+ HP V8's with a warranty.
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April 15, 2011 11:29 a.m. Sofa King Reader
We have gone off topic here, but someone, possibly a magazine, should hold a competition, where we could test whether it is better to swap to big engines, or to boost the crap out of small engines! But I'm broke, so they should put a spending limit on it!
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April 15, 2011 11:31 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
Javelin wrote:
Or 750+ HP V8's with a warranty.
Then we get into cost, and whether or not you really need a 750hp V8 in a tiny car.
I'm open to both options... it's just usually far simpler to me to work with the motor that's in there, or something that's easily swapped in using stock mounts. Because i lack skills.
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April 15, 2011 11:47 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
dculberson wrote:
"Perfectly good" is relative. 150hp is a long way from 300hp and getting that kind of power out of a tiny heavily modified 4-cylinder reliably isn't likely.
There is an update from GM for the Solstice GXP that raises the horsepower from the stock 260 to 300hp, and with a warranty. In addition, that Ecotech engine is good for 1000hp. I don't think the Solstice needs a V-8.
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April 15, 2011 11:48 a.m. Keith SuperDork
Like everything, it can be done well or it can be done poorly. There have been V8 swaps into "incorrect" cars forever. It hasn't always worked, but it's also given us cars like the Cobra and the Tiger. The engine of choice might be different than the classic 350, but the LSx engines are packaged better than the old SBC. Their light weight also makes them a better option for swaps.
A 300 hp 4-cylinder doesn't drive like a V8. This can be good or bad depending on how you want your performance delivered, but the end result is that there's quite a difference in the finished product.
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April 15, 2011 11:50 a.m. Keith SuperDork
bravenrace wrote:
dculberson wrote:
"Perfectly good" is relative. 150hp is a long way from 300hp and getting that kind of power out of a tiny heavily modified 4-cylinder reliably isn't likely.
There is an update from GM for the Solstice GXP that raises the horsepower from the stock 260 to 300hp, and with a warranty. In addition, that Ecotech engine is good for 1000hp. I don't think the Solstice needs a V-8.
Is that the same 300 hp engine the Atom was using when it pulled just over 200 at the wheels?
As for the magazine test of the boosted 4-cylinder vs the V8 swap - we'll have a 400+ hp 2.0 Miata at the Mitty along with a V8 car. Just sayin'.
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April 15, 2011 11:56 a.m. tuna55 Dork
Travis_K wrote:
Am i the only one that is rather unimpressed by everyone frantically cramming chevy LS engines into non chevy cars that came with perfectly good engines to begin with? Sometimes it turns out well, but most of the time not really.
You know, I am not. I don't know why, but it's like the weird world of GRM/CarCraft/HotRod and other random car places has tons and tons of LS style conversions like they're spoons, but I've only ever seen one or two in real life. I still think that it's a very good choice for real performance goals
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April 15, 2011 12:54 p.m. Nashco SuperDork
Keith wrote:
Is that the same 300 hp engine the Atom was using when it pulled just over 200 at the wheels?
No, it's the SAE certiifed, EPA/CARB legal, factory integrated 290 hp/360 ft lb engine in the Solstice/Sky (and very similar tunes in the FWD Cobalt/HHR SS). I'm pretty sure GM and their legion of engineers didn't build a screwed up Atom...
Come on Keith, you're above that kind of silliness, aren't you? The Ecotec, and particularly the 2.0 DI turbo version, is an extremely impressive engine, just like the LS. People can hate on the General around here all they want, but they do a hell of a job with their powertrains!
Personally, I'd rather keep the Sky with the turbo 4. If I wanted a V8 version, I'd just get a C5. If cost was no object, I wouldn't have any of these modern machines with swaps, I'd have something older, with more character, and more rarity.
Bryce
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April 15, 2011 1:37 p.m. Keith SuperDork
It was my understanding that the Atom engines were following the GM cookbook, but they sure weren't making the advertised horsepower. I've been a bit skeptical of Ecotech claims ever since. But you're right, it was a cheap shot.
However, I found it pretty soulless to drive as an engine. There would be a big difference between a Solstice with a 300 hp turbo Ecotec and an L33-powered one in my opinion.
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April 15, 2011 1:44 p.m. dculberson Reader
When I said "reliably," I meant something cooked up at home like an LSx swap would be. Turbo'ing a Miata motor to 300hp would be fun but wouldn't be as reliable as a 300hp LS1, not for similar amounts of work.
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April 15, 2011 1:56 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
dculberson wrote:
When I said "reliably," I meant something cooked up at home like an LSx swap would be. Turbo'ing a Miata motor to 300hp would be fun but wouldn't be as reliable as a 300hp LS1, not for similar amounts of work.
Slap on turbo kit + megasquirt, get tuned, and roll!
I think because i lack the skills to dump an LS1 in a miata would mean that the turbo kit on a BP would be easier for me personally. Not to mention way cheaper to the point that i could rebuild said BP at least a few times before the price/performance ratio goes away.
Those with more skills than me will disagree more than likely.
Not bagging an LS1 miata at all. I think they're awesome, i just wouldn't do one personally.
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April 15, 2011 2:41 p.m. Keith SuperDork
There's no question that it's easier to put a turbo on a BP than it is to put in a V8. But once you get to the 300 hp range, the cost and effort is a wash between the two. By that point, you've built the engine, spent a bunch of time on the dyno and hopefully done something about the transmission. You're also starting to sacrifice your driveability in order to run a turbo big enough for those power levels.
The crossover number might be different on the Solstice, given that you can get a factory turbo model with some decent potential.
Do not forget torque, of course. Again, there's a big difference in driving a force-fed 4-cylinder and a big engine. I was a skeptic about the whole V8 Miata thing until I drove one of the LS-powered ones. Now I'm a convert, to say the least.
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April 15, 2011 4:48 p.m. plance1 Dork
I'm the guy who started this thread, I never rode in a V-8 miata (but I have driven several original cars) nor have I ever been in a Solstice and I was just curious what others thought after reading the latest GRM issue... I can't see myself spending 20k plus on an engine transplant thats why I removed cost from the equation. I don't like the looks of the Saturn Sky but I have always liked the looks of the Solstice, and the Solstice looks wider and like it would be a more stable platform then the Miata. I think the point that some have made about weight is a good one, but I kind of chuckle a bit when Grassroots people talk about not having trunk space and interiors that aren't up to their, snif, snif, standards lol!
In the end though, I'm liking the 1st generation V-8 miata. Keith, I'll take mine in black, please get started on it, I'll be by in about 10 years when I have the money to pay for it.
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April 15, 2011 5:29 p.m. JoeyM SuperDork
Keith wrote:
It was my understanding that the Atom engines were following the GM cookbook, but they sure weren't making the advertised horsepower. I've been a bit skeptical of Ecotech claims ever since. But you're right, it was a cheap shot.
The only atom I've ever seen in real life was using an ecotec sourced from a saab
I didn't get to ask the owner about the HP.....
