Yesterday I had some ask me what the lap time differences were between V8 Miatas and Spec Miata? Naturally I have no clue but figure someone here would.
Yesterday I had some ask me what the lap time differences were between V8 Miatas and Spec Miata? Naturally I have no clue but figure someone here would.
That's a hard one to answer. The v8 has more power and torque. All things equal, v8 wins. Also, the v8 car can have any suspension under it. The spec cars have to deal with what they get. It's not optimal from what I hear.
now, spec Miata Driver versus v8 meathead? no competition.
Depends on the track, too.
I do know that a friend's fully caged 5.3L NC with a cam would run Harris Hill about 2-2.5 seconds faster than his NA car that was built better than a Spec Miata. He would have been a mid pack SM driver in the region.
Harris Hill is not really a power track. Something like COTA would have added another second or so.
As my mother likes to say, that's like asking "how long is a piece of string?" In addition to the power difference, the required Spec Miata suspension is not particularly good and they run 205/50R15 Hoosiers. A fully built V8 Miata will have 275 Hoosiers at a minimum.
Random anecdote though: the Spec Miata lap record at Laguna Seca is around 1:45 (normal race times are more like 1:47), and I know someone who did a 1:39 in his LS3-powered NA at the last big annual Miata track day there. I think it had 200tw tires, not sure.
So I'm going to go with "A lot". :)
Very track dependent, assuming tires with similar grip. At Road Atlanta it's at least a 5 or 6 second difference due to the long straightaway. At Atlanta Motorsports Park it might only be a second or two.
My car has literally 4x the power of a SM and pretty much the same weight. It's a pretty compelling difference at Laguna Seca. Coming in to Turn 2, you're dealing with cars that weren't in sight when you entered the straight.
It's not the comparison you asked about, but I found this track versus street car article to be interesting.
GT3 Cup vs GT2 RS
I wasn't looking for an apples to apples just a general idea.
Tom1200 said:I wasn't looking for an apples to apples just a general idea.
As everyone else said, A LOT.
There is no getting around the HP difference or not ideal suspension for an SM car.............where guys bend the A-arms to get more camber and such.
The reason why I got asked about Spec Miata vs V8 are SMs are abundant at track days, crappy suspension or not, they put up respectable laps times and so it's natural someone would ask what they'd do with some power.
Codrus had the answer I was more or less looking for; a general comparison.
In reply to Tom1200 :
First lap or last lap? I suspect the brakes on a V8 Miata would fade to zero at a track like Elkhart Lake.
there are 3 really long straights followed with 90 degree corners that you come screaming into at terminal velocity. Plus 4 straightish sections that heavy hard braking is called for at the end of. All that and the carousel. In 4 miles you are really hard onto your brakes at 7 different places.
That's assuming you have a giant pair of brass ones clanking between your legs and your car handles well enough to use them.
Trans Am and Indy cars bring their biggest cooling ducts.
We are such granular people; what's the velocity of a sparrow? African or European..........laden or unladen?
frenchyd said:First lap or last lap? I suspect the brakes on a V8 Miata would fade to zero at a track like Elkhart Lake.
Obviously it's going to need a lot more brakes than a Spec Miata has, but options exist.
On a related note, anyone know what the fastes Miata at Solo Nationals was, and how much faster it was than the top CSP car (if any)?
Edit: CSP beat all of XP, DP, and all Miatas in SSM (1st Place SSM was faster)
I don't know what powertrain XP or SSM cars were running.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Ifrenchyd said:First lap or last lap? I suspect the brakes on a V8 Miata would fade to zero at a track like Elkhart Lake.
Obviously it's going to need a lot more brakes than a Spec Miata has, but options exist.
I would assume the V8 Miata would have the biggest brakes Wilwood makes. I also assume a V8 Miat would be capable of 150+ mph. If I can find the weight I'll be able to calculate the energy needed to stop it 7 times per lap to the cornering speed ( somewhere around 40-45 mph?) from 150. For three corners and from about 120 from 4.
that's gonna be a great big pile of BTU's.
Yes, speed equals brake heat. It's a challenge. But not enough to bring the V8 car down to the lap time of a Spec Miata. I have had the opportunity to test this in the real world.
frenchyd said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Ifrenchyd said:First lap or last lap? I suspect the brakes on a V8 Miata would fade to zero at a track like Elkhart Lake.
Obviously it's going to need a lot more brakes than a Spec Miata has, but options exist.
I would assume the V8 Miata would have the biggest brakes Wilwood makes. I also assume a V8 Miat would be capable of 150+ mph. If I can find the weight I'll be able to calculate the energy needed to stop it 7 times per lap to the cornering speed ( somewhere around 40-45 mph?) from 150. For three corners and from about 120 from 4.
that's gonna be a great big pile of BTU's.
I know that a turbo Miata with 220ish whp takes a really long time to get to 130 mph. Even with the power that comes with a V8, I think it would be tough to hit 150 on most tracks without some significant aero improvements. I could be wrong, just speculating.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Random anecdote though: the Spec Miata lap record at Laguna Seca is around 1:45 (normal race times are more like 1:47), and I know someone who did a 1:39 in his LS3-powered NA at the last big annual Miata track day there. I think it had 200tw tires, not sure.
So I'm going to go with "A lot". :)
And I can only muster a 1:52 in my nc...
ProDarwin said:On a related note, anyone know what the fastes Miata at Solo Nationals was, and how much faster it was than the top CSP car (if any)?
Edit: CSP beat all of XP, DP, and all Miatas in SSM (1st Place SSM was faster)
I don't know what powertrain XP or SSM cars were running.
SSM miata is running a supercharged BP that's been worked over meticulously and it's absolutely MENTAL.
Erik Anderson puts a lot of blood sweat and effort into making the car quick.
you can't look exclusively at the times, you gotta dig deeper. BUT I will say, CSP is friggin quick because the top cars are all very established and well developed to the limit of the rules, and so the drivers continue to gain seat time over years and years.
I don't know all the weather conditions from 2019 cause i was only there Thursday and Friday. Other thing to consider, cars that run later heats get less line choice.. the OPR dropped off line starts to really hinder where you can go and sometimes the fastest line of a later run heat.. isn't the true fastest line..
so lets look at 2018.
SSM was West on day 1 CSP was west on Day 2.
2018 west course map
Wilcox ran a 55.286 in the SSM car.. Tovsen in the CSP car ran a 56.575.
the east times are skewed. Based upon the times.. I'm guessing SSM ran in the rain on east course..
these cars run basically identical tire setups with 275 Hoosiers DOT's.
Autocross is a game where the car matters.... only up to a certain point.
looking at the prosolo results from 2019, specifically the RT/60ft data.. .you can REALLY see where the advantages go to the SSM car and some of the trick stuff they've done to it with launch control and other things.
Randall in the SSM car is pulling 60ft's that are 2 tenths quicker ALMOST EVERY TIME. Neal is putting down almost identical times on course in thr CSP car, he's literally outdriving the launch deficit.
What car you're in matters to a point, then your driving ability matters even more when you're at that pointy end.
I mean TOMO won F Prepared in a BSP prepped S2000..
Yeah, I get all that. Definitely a case of apples and oranges (lets face it, this whole thread is). Autox is just an interesting world where you can have cars that make presumably 2-3x the power and are running times nearly the same :)
I will have to look up some details on the SSM S2000 though.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Ifrenchyd said:First lap or last lap? I suspect the brakes on a V8 Miata would fade to zero at a track like Elkhart Lake.
Obviously it's going to need a lot more brakes than a Spec Miata has, but options exist.
I would assume the V8 Miata would have the biggest brakes Wilwood makes. I also assume a V8 Miat would be capable of 150+ mph. If I can find the weight I'll be able to calculate the energy needed to stop it 7 times per lap to the cornering speed ( somewhere around 40-45 mph?) from 150. For three corners and from about 120 from 4.
that's gonna be a great big pile of BTU's.I know that a turbo Miata with 220ish whp takes a really long time to get to 130 mph. Even with the power that comes with a V8, I think it would be tough to hit 150 on most tracks without some significant aero improvements. I could be wrong, just speculating.
I'm just guessing here, the three long straights are between 5/8 and 3/4 of a mile each. At the apex you're around 40-45 ? Two of those corners you're going down hill. One is flat. Seems like 400 hp? Should haul a little Miata into some high velocity from 45 in 3/4 of a mile.
My Black Jack Spl (1958) would hit 155 into turn 5 With less than 300 hp.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Random anecdote though: the Spec Miata lap record at Laguna Seca is around 1:45 (normal race times are more like 1:47), and I know someone who did a 1:39 in his LS3-powered NA at the last big annual Miata track day there. I think it had 200tw tires, not sure.
Since we're comparing Miatas, 1.39 is about the quickest time a ND global cup car runs.
I checked the SCCA RunOffs for Laguna.
T1 Mustang on pole with a 1:34. I used T1 because they are still production car based.
E-production Miata was 1:37, it's still a miata (read non tube frame)
The aforementioned V8 powered miata being on 200tw tires with R-compound tires is theoretically" of a 1:37.
Basically a V8 miata, being no more fussy than a Spec miata, is pretty much capable of the same lap times as a full race miata but not as fast as a race prepped V8 production car.
Naturally this is a total Apples to Orangutans comparison but at least I can give someone a very generalized comparison.
So a very fast turbo miata time trial car (Sonny Watanasirisuk Super miata) ran a 1:58 at VIR in 2018 hyperfest weekend. I imagine a V8 car could equal that.
The fastest spec miata that day was 2:17.
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