LordTurbonia
LordTurbonia New Reader
2/3/11 4:18 p.m.

Having put out feelers on an XR4TI V8 swap kit, I began to look at all of my options one more time.

There's the Lima 2.3 turbo, but it's a boat anchor and mine is messed up and in need of lots of work anyway . . . $$$

There's the V6 I originally dismissed in favor of picking up an Essex 4.2 from an F150; the Ford 4.0 SOHC. Little did I realize that this engine swaps into the Merkur using Euro XR4i 2.9 or Scorpio engine mounts . . . ostensibly bolt in. I can get a T5 bellhousing from a 2005-2009 V6 Mustang, but I would have to find some way to convert the clutch to a cable setup. Plus, aside from supercharger kits the 4.0 SOHC has an astonishing lack of aftermarket support. You can't even get new cams for it off the shelf, much less anything else.

So I googled "engine mounts", etc. and came up with an interesting conundrum: the Ford Zetec.

"Zetec?" Hear me out:

1)You can buy a brand new, custom made bellhousing to mate the Zetec and T5 for less than $300. That is before shipping from England, though. The Zetecs use the Pinto (NOT Lima, the two are slightly different) bellhousing pattern, which is widely available in a RWD bellhousing for a number of transmissions overseas. All the clutch, etc. issues have been solved by RWD Escort/Cortina guys in the UK.

2) You can buy off the shelf motor mounts for the Euro Ford Sierra with a CVH/Cosworth 4-cyl, and they will bolt up to the Zetec block with the exception of one hole on the passenger side mount. I am trying to find a way around this, but one guy in the States makes these mounts custom (extra hard bushings, reinforced, etc.) and I may be able to get him to drill a new pattern on the affected mount.

3) Aftermarket and factory support . . . cough, cough, SVT Focus, cough . . .

4) Turbo setups are in the wild and proven to 5.0 GT40 power levels. On stock internals, no less.

5) TWO cams with SIXTEEN valves. ALUMINUM head. Modern combustion chambers.

6) It swaps the hot side away from the battery. Exhaust routing is a cake because the Euro CVH engines did the hot/cold sides the exact same way. (Only thing that worries me is the LHD fitment . . . no sense catching my steering on fire to save my battery.)

Downsides? It's not a Duratec 2.3 with ITB's and cammed out the yin yang, nor is it a 5.0 with high flow exhaust cammed out the yin yang. Block is still iron. I'll have to get or make a coolant pipe to get the coolant routing right. I'm ripping all of the wiring out that I can, so that won't be a factor, and I'll be running Megasquirt, so that won't either. The sump may prove troublesome, but there is a solution in the wild.

Here's the deal: the Zetec swap is what these cars need. A modern, inexpensive engine that can be dropped in in N/A (SVT Focus or equivalent; get some 3.91 or higher gears for the final drive and ride the revs to HP town) or turbo, bolted in with known factory parts, rewired to the EEC 4 harness, and driven. I can do this swap N/A with a Contour junkyard motor for the cost of an Esslinger or Boport head for my Lima.

Anyone have any experience with these motors, particularly in RWD configurations? Any hot combos or gotchyas I should be on the look for?

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/3/11 4:26 p.m.
LordTurbonia wrote: 1)You can buy a brand new, custom made bellhousing to mate the Zetec and T5 for less than $300.

Hummm. On a budget, shouldn't a 2.3 Lima to T5 bell work, or come darn close? I thought the Zetec had the same bolt pattern as the early Ford I4s.

Or if you're not going to make a ton of power, go to a T9 and use a 2.0 Capri bellhousing.

ST_ZX2
ST_ZX2 Reader
2/3/11 4:41 p.m.

And why are we not thinking about a Ranger Duratec 2.3 setup?

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/3/11 4:43 p.m.
ST_ZX2 wrote: And why are we not thinking about a Ranger Duratec 2.3 setup?

I ended up with the stock 2.6 in my Capri, but when I was thinking "modern" update, Duratec 2.3 is where I was headed. Make good power and you can get turbo kits for them.

LordTurbonia
LordTurbonia New Reader
2/3/11 4:56 p.m.

Nobody has made mounts for a Ranger Duratec swap that I have been able to find. Plus, I can't find a T5 bellhousing for under $500.

I've heard on forums, etc. there's some Duratec swaps in the wild, but frankly I am not nearly enough of a fabricator to sit there with a car and an engine and go "OK, these are the dimensions of my new mount." Now, if there were some CAD drawings of them, I"m sure I could whip them up. I'm just not comfortable trying to figure out blank-slate engine positioning in a production car.

Plus, the Zetec gets me most of the Duratec's capabilities for much less cost. Hell, I may end up adapting my Lima 2.3 bellhousing to the Zetec pattern (see this guy's Locost build for a better look at the differences) but by the time I pay somebody to TIG a block on the top and deal with pins, etc. I can probably just buy the British piece. The Lima and Pinto 2.3 patterns are similar, but just different enough to make adapting a pain in the ass. (Think Folvo swap for the 2.3 Lima.)

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim SuperDork
2/3/11 5:28 p.m.

Just keep in mind that shipping over something like a bell housing can cost you $200-$300 easily, depending on the company used.

Shipping over a computer (well, in a large server style case with appropriate weight) last year cost approx $180...

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo HalfDork
2/3/11 5:33 p.m.

If you can't fabricate things like adding a few bolt holes to a motor mount, an unusual engine swap in an unusual chassis is gonna end up parted out on a forum long before it ends up running and driving.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/3/11 5:36 p.m.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I believe Duratec has the good old Ford I4 bell patern as well. So adapting a 2.3 to T5 bell should work for that just as easily.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
2/3/11 5:51 p.m.
LordTurbonia wrote: Nobody has made mounts for a Ranger Duratec swap that I have been able to find. Plus, I can't find a T5 bellhousing for under $500.

http://quad4rods.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=18&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=100041

Hal
Hal Dork
2/3/11 8:39 p.m.

<---- I'm a little biased in favor of the Zetec. PowerWorks supercharger gives me a very streetable car with 225Hp and 187TQ at the wheels. If you want more there are several Turbo Kits available.

Another plus is that the Zetec is non-interference while the Duratec is not.

John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
2/3/11 8:49 p.m.

I know your intentions well, ask anyone on this board. Please take this advice as openly as possible:

If you can not figure out how to fab up the swap mounts, sell the XR4Ti and buy one already swapped and sorted. You will be much happier.

rogerbvonceg
rogerbvonceg Reader
2/4/11 12:07 p.m.

Didn't Spec Racer Ford (or one of those) go to Zetecs? Could anything be gleaned from that?

SVTF
SVTF Reader
2/4/11 12:21 p.m.
Hal wrote: <---- I'm a little biased in favor of the Zetec. PowerWorks supercharger gives me a very streetable car with 225Hp and 187TQ at the wheels. If you want more there are several Turbo Kits available. Another plus is that the Zetec is non-interference while the Duratec is not.

Powerworks kit is sweet but now very hard to find. A turbo, while custom, gives more torque anyway, and is more easily upgraded to higher power levels. Checkout Focuswerks for the status on their turbo kits for the Zetec.

The standard Zetec is non-interference - the SVT Zetec IS an interference design. But it has oil squirters to cool the pistons so for forced induction that's the way to go (with forged components and lower compression ratio, of course).

LordTurbonia
LordTurbonia New Reader
2/4/11 2:45 p.m.

This is my response to you naysayers

But seriously, I'm doing this because it is not nearly as nuts as it sounds. I'll get some links and a few pictures up in a few days, but long story short this will bolt in with adapted, easily available mounts, NOT mounts fabricated out of whole cloth. The latter was what I was desperately looking to avoid, as I don't trust myself to keep the positioning accurate in three dimensions when my measurements will be based off of having the motor dangle from a hoist in my engine bay. In addition, I don't trust my welds enough to hang an engine off of them.

I don't mind scrounging, adapting, altering etc. but I'm not a welder or fabricator. I'm a network engineer, and I don't have any problem admitting that I understand things in my head that I can't execute with my hands. I also don't have a problem stepping back and going to a pro for parts when it will save me time, trouble, and money. That's not being in over your head, that's good project management and common sense.

That's also why I'm bugging you guys with all of my random ideas, BS, etc. all the time. I want to bounce the things I have on paper against people who have dealt with those same things in the wild and see if the ideas hold up.

That said, I appreciate the message. Crawl before you walk and all that. Maybe I am getting overly ambitious, and that is why I'm doing a lot of research and throwing out a lot of what-ifs. There's no set blueprint for where I'm going, after all.

(PS: I am feeling like I'm on to something with all the Zetec love in this thread. Non-interference you say?)

tincetti
tincetti New Reader
2/4/11 6:58 p.m.

What are your HP/TQ goals ? I know the Lima motor is is on the heavy side, but 300hp is attainable with intercooling and increased boost, with the stock VAM and a 3" exhaust.Find a t bird turbo coupe motor at the junkyard and spend your money on a megasquirt /MAF conversion. Spent any time at turboford.org ? The boat anchor can produce scary power.

tuna55
tuna55 Dork
2/4/11 7:39 p.m.

I loved the Zetec while I had my ZX2 - best (and only good part) of the car. Neat engine.

John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
2/4/11 8:48 p.m.
LordTurbonia wrote: This is my response to you naysayers But seriously, I'm doing this because it is not nearly as nuts as it sounds. I'll get some links and a few pictures up in a few days, but long story short this will bolt in with adapted, easily available mounts, NOT mounts fabricated out of whole cloth. The latter was what I was desperately looking to avoid, as I don't trust myself to keep the positioning accurate in three dimensions when my measurements will be based off of having the motor dangle from a hoist in my engine bay. In addition, I don't trust my welds enough to hang an engine off of them. I don't mind scrounging, adapting, altering etc. but I'm not a welder or fabricator. I'm a network engineer, and I don't have any problem admitting that I understand things in my head that I can't execute with my hands. I also don't have a problem stepping back and going to a pro for parts when it will save me time, trouble, and money. That's not being in over your head, that's good project management and common sense. That's also why I'm bugging you guys with all of my random ideas, BS, etc. all the time. I want to bounce the things I have on paper against people who have dealt with those same things in the wild and see if the ideas hold up. That said, I appreciate the message. Crawl before you walk and all that. Maybe I am getting overly ambitious, and that is why I'm doing a lot of research and throwing out a lot of what-ifs. There's no set blueprint for where I'm going, after all. (PS: I am feeling like I'm on to something with all the Zetec love in this thread. Non-interference you say?)

As long as you understand that I just want you to be able to enjoy the car. The Deberry mounts are great, He is a notorius overengineer, and I suspect that you will appreciate that. I have built swap mounts from cardboard and original style block mounts then had our local welding shop actually cut the pads and weld them up. It is a lot easier than you would expect.

RossD
RossD SuperDork
4/26/11 6:09 p.m.

How did I miss this thread the first time around?

If you find a pinto 2.0 4 speed bellhousing, it matches the zetec block (minus the relocated starter) and bolts to the T-9 in the Xr4ti. You might need a plate between the bell and box because I believe the merkurs have the long input shaft. Or some grinding at the end...

I also thought of using a plate to adapt the two moved upper bolts of the lima engine to try and use a T-5.

I have a zetec, pinto 4 speed, and a SR4 4 speed (predecessor of the T-4 and T-5) for a lima that I was going to use for a locost, but am now selling.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy Reader
4/26/11 8:14 p.m.

the big plus one to the Zetec is its the engine of now... not the past.

John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
4/26/11 9:16 p.m.

I still say Split Port 3.8L / T5.

I have decided that a Scorpio with said swap would fit my needs well.

MG_Bryan
MG_Bryan New Reader
4/26/11 10:30 p.m.

No experience with them, but since you mentioned 4.0L Cologne V6s http://www.moranav6racing.com/category.html?CategoryID=32

pres589
pres589 Dork
4/27/11 9:16 a.m.

In reply to John Brown:

The cars are set up for Cologne V6's and there the 4.0 / T5 combo out late Mustangs all around. Why the 3.8? Especially on a Scorpio.

LordTurbonia
LordTurbonia New Reader
4/27/11 1:25 p.m.
pres589 wrote: In reply to John Brown: The cars are set up for Cologne V6's and there the 4.0 / T5 combo out late Mustangs all around. Why the 3.8? Especially on a Scorpio.

Packaging and weight ... the 4.0 is huge compared to the 3.8/4.2. I actually have a 4.2 on an engine stand that I purchased in anticipation of doing exactly what John said, but that was months ago and something shiny distracted me.

I've done all of the math on this car, and frankly America is the wrong place to build an XR4Ti.

I'm getting it back because my roommate is getting a truck, but frankly I don't know what to do with it, and all of my visions of an Americanized Sierra Cosworth are directly opposed by the sheer amount of custom work and fab that I'm running into. The Zetec idea was something I picked up on the British Sierra forums, but by the time I build it I'll be out of pocket enough to have a real Cosworth.

My shell isn't even clean enough to do like Raze and just tinker with it; and I'm seesawing between ripping the hood off, shoving a Ranger 4.0 in, and going Lemons racing or just selling it on. Frankly, my attitude in my earlier posts was just denial of how much of a sink this car would be and how I knew I was in more than I wanted to be.

Way to bring an old thread back and embarrass me

RossD
RossD SuperDork
4/27/11 3:24 p.m.

In reply to LordTurbonia:

You're welcome.

I have most of the parts you need to drop a Zetec into your Xr4ti... hint hint... they are for sale too... cheap.

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