Login Register Sign up for the GRM e-newsletter

Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Data Acquisition question
  • DrBoost

    Jan. 6, 2010 12:53 p.m. DrBoost Dork

    Ok, so a buddy of mine is in the finishing stages of developing a data acquisition system and I am handling the technical documentation and testing for him, and I need your input.
    The system is aimed at just about any level of racing below NASCRAP and F1.
    He's not a racer, he's an engineer. I'm not an engineer, I'm a guy who likes to think he can drive a car faster than your average 6 year old girl. I convinced him that on-board video is a must. He's ok with that. But where I'm butting heads with him is that I think he needs to have input from the car. As it stands now, the system can come up with all sorts of data like speed, accel, decel and the like but I think for that info to be useful it needs to also have input from the vehicle like brake pedal switch, throttle pedal, steering wheel angle (of it's monitored through OBD).
    So, let's say your paying 2 grand or less for a system, what do you expect to get out of it?

    Disclaimer: I have a terrible cold and am medicated right now, I hope that all makes sense

  • turboswede

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:02 p.m. turboswede UltraDork

    That was what I was planning to do with my home-made DATAQ system. I wouldn't make it a requirement, but if the information is available, make use of it. It would only be a couple more channels to monitor.

    Tapping into an OBDI/II feed might be trickier though. That would require a module specific for the manufacturer, so I'd just do taps for existing sensors (throttle position, coolant temp, MAP/MAF, vacuum/boost, oil pressure, etc) and work on a way to integrate data from an OBD feed for the next generation.

    Fro $500, I could see merely getting accelerometer and GPS data as I can get that from my phone, adding on-board video is gravy that makes us all feel cool when we watch it. For $2000, I would expect more data options available. His competitors do this already.

  • BoxheadTim

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:07 p.m. BoxheadTim HalfDork

    I'd definitely expect to be able to look at throttle position, braking (how hard I'm stepping on the pedal), and preferably things like oil temp/pressure, wideband reading, possibly steering angle...

    Even the cheap dataloggers do allow for some of the above inputs so if I can get the accel/decel info, track plotting via GPS and speed via a unit for $1k that can also log some of the above, I'd expect a $2k unit to be able to log more.

    Not sure if video is a must, I think it'd be a nice addon once you can log all the data people would like to see.

  • Capt Slow

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:08 p.m. Capt Slow HalfDork

    I am with you Dr Boost. for 2 grand I expect to have more than just video + accelerometer data.

    I am about to pony up for a traqmate One of the "extras" I am planning on aquiring is a sensor kit for the brake and gas petals. I am hoping it we settle some of the "were you really flat through that section?" debates I have been having with the other driver of the car.

    To me it seems that the hardware is not really the part of the system where most manufactures screw things up. The analysis software that you use to interpret the data is really the thing that separates many of the manufactures apart.

  • pinchvalve

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:08 p.m. pinchvalve UberDork

    I would want to be able to compare my times against a 6-year old girl.

  • alfadriver

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:33 p.m. alfadriver Dork

    For over $500, I expect analog inputs if GPS is not part of the system. For over $1000, I expect analog, GPS AND OBD port info.

    The OBD stuff is very easy- use the generic PID's that everyone has to, and you are all set.

    For $900, I can get GPS, acceleration, and analog voltage inputs with a good graphing system with Race Technology.

    I've also found an 8 channel system that's capable of recording video for $250- stand alone, onto an SD card.

    If it's near $2000, it should be capable of a LOT. GPS, video, internal accelerometers, OBD+ at least 32 channels of analog. And a really smoking hot plotting program.

    Eric

  • Salanis

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:35 p.m. Salanis UberDork

    For $2k, I'd also want to see something more complete. Total throttle, brakes, and steering angle would be nice. I'm not sure what you'd use as a steering angle sensor.

    Have you considered creating a system that does what other systems do (or maybe a little more), but for cheaper?

  • stuart in mn

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:42 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

    To be honest, I think the boat left without him and he's too late...if you look in the magazine, there are a number of ads for existing data acquisition systems out there already that do all this for well under $2k.

  • Keith

    Jan. 6, 2010 1:51 p.m. Keith PowerDork

    All the doodad has to do is log extra inputs. To measure steering angle, brake pressure or the like you simply install a sensor and attach it to the logger. The datalogger doesn't have to know what the thing IS, it just has to keep track of the voltage coming in. Then give the software the ability to display these inputs with user definitions.

  • Jan. 6, 2010 2:32 p.m. kb58 Reader

    You guys will have to watch your price point because flat panel displays are coming down in price constantly. The Race Technology DASH2 unit, besides the obvious backlit LCD screen, has all sorts of inputs, including the ability to read ECU ODB2 data packets, and it's currently $865. I have no connection with them, just sayin' that's what you're up against.

  • DrBoost

    Jan. 6, 2010 2:42 p.m. DrBoost Dork

    He has other tricks up his sleeve that the others can't even touch, but I can't spill any beans. The $2,000 price point is the higher end. I think he wants to offer cheaper packages with less info. I'm just trying to get him to see the need for those other inputs. I dont think he understands that a racer will want to see when he's getting on/off the brake/throttle and the like.
    In your dream system, what would it offer for, say a grand and 2 grand?

  • Jan. 6, 2010 3:00 p.m. NVHEngr New Reader

    http://intrepidcs.com/neovifire

    We use this at work all the time. If the ECU can read it, so will this. We have logged data for hours. You can also use it to clear codes and troubleshoot. Very useful tool.

  • erohslc

    Jan. 6, 2010 3:57 p.m. erohslc Reader

    Nowdays folks want Plug'n'play. Unless you are targeting the niche of folks willing/able to run extra wires and sensors, that's likely a deal breaker, no matter what the price. And those folks probably can roll their own system.

    As NVHEngr says, anything already talking to the ECU through the CAN bus is low hanging fruit. Once you can access the CAN bus, the rest is just software.

  • Jan. 6, 2010 4:07 p.m. kb58 Reader

    Eh... CAN bus sensors, while convenient, are very expensive. It's a sneeky-ass Marketing ploy to offer a CAN bus-based data-acq unit that's cheap, then make $200 - $400 on each sensor...

  • Jan. 6, 2010 4:07 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

    alfadriver wrote:

    I've also found an 8 channel system that's capable of recording video for $250- stand alone, onto an SD card.

    Keep talking...

  • alfadriver

    Jan. 6, 2010 8:36 p.m. alfadriver Dork

    Nashco wrote:

    alfadriver wrote:

    I've also found an 8 channel system that's capable of recording video for $250- stand alone, onto an SD card.

    Keep talking...

    I was going to send it to you directy, Bryce, but figured others would be interested. Oh, and $199. But USB thumb drive instead of SD card.

    http://www.hytekautomation.ca/U1208LOG.aspx?productId=2

    Eric

  • CagleRacing

    Jan. 6, 2010 8:51 p.m. CagleRacing New Reader

    I haven't purchased a professional system yet, but I like RLC's concept of using GPS sensors at the front and rear as a way to quantify oversteer vs understeer.

    Keep the core unit flexible enough for open wheel cars and motorcycles and sell accessories for specific applications. That's the key to potential markets you may not have yet identified.

    Steven Cagle

  • unevolved

    Jan. 6, 2010 10:04 p.m. unevolved Reader

    I went to OptimumG last May (and will be going back), and Claude argued against GPS-based slip angle sensors based largely on the inaccuracy the (relatively) slow log rate of 10 Hz.

  • rob_lewis

    Jan. 6, 2010 11:15 p.m. rob_lewis Dork

    How far down under F1 are you talking?

    In the karting world, the AIM Mychron is king and has been for some time. If you can tap into that market and knock them off, you'd be accomplishing something.

    Their high in display and extended box will run you about $1100 and will record lap times, speed, 3 temps, brake position, throttle position, GPS and lateral acceleration. Also comes the graphing software for your computer.

    -Rob

  • Jan. 7, 2010 1:11 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

    alfadriver wrote:

    Nashco wrote:

    alfadriver wrote:

    I've also found an 8 channel system that's capable of recording video for $250- stand alone, onto an SD card.

    Keep talking...

    I was going to send it to you directy, Bryce, but figured others would be interested. Oh, and $199. But USB thumb drive instead of SD card.

    http://www.hytekautomation.ca/U1208LOG.aspx?productId=2

    Eric

    That's a lot of bang for the buck, definitely. It's kind of a bummer that the input voltage ranges are so low, makes it a lot more fiddly to tap into the existing circuits on automotive stuff. I'll definitely be keeping it in mind, but it'd be a lot easier sell to buy that specific module if they sold a plug-n-chug voltage divider for +/-20V like they do the 10V divider. A very neat perk of that unit is the PWM output...not something most would need, but nice to have if you do!

    Bryce

  • Capt Slow

    Jan. 7, 2010 2:28 p.m. Capt Slow HalfDork

    not to hijack the thread or anything but has anyone out there used the traqmates traqdata anolog/digital/RPM addon?

    Is that a card I can plug in at a later date if I want to add it? does it work well?

  • DrBoost

    Jan. 7, 2010 4:17 p.m. DrBoost Dork

    Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to send him a link to this thread, I don't want to spend much time if the venture isn't going to be worth my time.

 

You'll need to log in to post.