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Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/15/18 12:32 p.m.

I have long dreamed of building a boat.  Over the last 20 years or so I have explored the designs on Glen-L's website and one of these days I'm going to pull the trigger.  It will be an I/O or jet.  Would consider an outboard as well.  The lake where I do most of my boating is large, but has some shallow areas to get from one part of the lake to another.  The ability to be able to trim up and pass through these areas as well as trim up for shore landings is a necessity for me to enjoy this lake.  I currently have an 18' bowrider I/O and its nice and comfy but its also heavy, sucks gas, and doesn't do anything well except look good.  I used to have a 19' Baja with a hopped up 350 in it that was good for 60+ mph, but was also heavy and aging.  Focus will be on speed, passenger comfort, and looking good.  The chop never gets too terrible here.  I have seen 3' chop on extremely rare occasions, but its usually possible with the shape of the lake to travel near leeward shores.  Deadrise should allow for smoothing some chop, but it doesn't need to be offshore-levels of deep vee.  Think maybe somewhere between a typical I/O and a flats boat vee.

Does anyone know of any boat design catalogs/websites I'm missing?  Glen-L is nice, but most of their designs are from the 50s-70s

I'm also mostly here for ideas about power.  The easy button is SBC, but I don't like easy buttons.  This will also likely be a relatively light hull, and a 750-lb engine assembly isn't very attractive, particularly when it comes to CG issues.  I have marinized a couple engines before and its surprisingly pretty easy.  There are DIY ways of spark-arresting starters, alternators, and distributors.  The big expense comes with fabbing jacketed exhaust manifolds and risers

So I'm thinking way off the rails here.  Looking for a relatively small, light, power-dense engine.  I doubt the hull I choose will be particularly deep, so to avoid big engine covers sticking up would be nice.  Let's pick an arbitrary number of 300hp.  Forced induction is ok, but not preferred.  Chargers in boats are wonderful because with an endless supply of cool lake water, intercooler efficiencies can be well over 100%.  Turbos are tough because you have to have water jackets before and after the turbo, but not through the turbo.  That means either very difficult fabbing, or choosing off-the-shelf marine turbo parts which usually cost more than the boat itself and limits you to basically Chevy or Ford engines.  Superchargers do get used in boats and are simpler to package, but given their belt-driven status they don't align well with the loads that marine engines typically see.  Superchargers rock on the street because most of your time is spent between zero and 3/4 throttle.  Marine engines spend most of their time between 3/4 and full throttle where supercharger efficiency isn't as good.  Still a fine idea, just not as applicable as a turbo.

My initial thoughts:
- Suby 3.0L H6.  My only concern there is that with the exhaust pointing down, it will be difficult/expensive to fab risers.
- I thought about a small V12 (who wouldn't want to hear the howl of a v12 through open exhaust?) but that adds tons of complexity to fabbing jacketed manifolds.
- Aluminum-block LS.  Some jacketed headers exist out there but cost a fortune.
- I ruled out a Caddy 500.  They're not particularly heavy (about the same as a 350) but they are just physically monstrous.

Help me think of some oddball ideas.  As you brainstorm, keep this in mind:  It needs enough displacement that the torque peak RPM is below cruising speed for two reasons.  You don't want to "lug" the engine below torque peak while cruising, and if you don't peak your torque low enough you might never get up on plane.  I've seen guys all excited to put a sport bike motor in their little Checkmate and then get disappointed when they have to lean forward over the bow to get on plane despite having 250 hp in an 800-lb hull.

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/15/18 6:54 p.m.

Boats are like Meth.  They rot your teeth and take all of your money, but they're addictive and you can't stop :)

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
7/15/18 7:41 p.m.

Seven Marine(outboard motor porn)....at the way far end of the spectrum.....like when you've scored the lottery or when uncle Bernie,Lou,Mel,Sid or Harold had you in the 'WILL' ,but you never really had an inkling until now....

stuart in mn
stuart in mn UltimaDork
7/15/18 8:01 p.m.

Coincidentally I was reading one of my old Hot Rod magazines from 1964 last night, and in the tech questions column someone wrote in asking about what engine to use in a boat, an Olds or a Pontiac.  The tech editor said to use the Pontiac, mainly because there were more parts for marine applications for that engine (at that time.)

I think the same reasoning applies today...don't get too far off the beaten path when choosing an engine unless you want to spend a lot of time and money adapting it for use in a boat; if everyone is using some particular brand, there's probably a good reason for it.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/15/18 8:41 p.m.

Sam Devlin has some beautiful designs and is one of the pioneers of "stitch and glue"

 

Dudley Dix's website is a mess, but he is a good guy, Met him this past spring in Stevensville MD and didn't know it. Very down to earth and willing to talk about anything.

 

Paul Gartside has an amazing cataloge of designs that are mostly very british in design. Nice guy, willing to help with any question you may have. I almost can consider him a friend.

mw
mw Dork
7/15/18 8:50 p.m.

As someone who has spent these past few days, fixing his boat, get a dead reliable engine and make sure there’s plenty of access to it.

Brokeback (Matt)
Brokeback (Matt) Reader
7/15/18 8:59 p.m.

I know nothing about marinizing (Siri thinks I mean marinating) engines but a JDM 1-UZFE with vvti should get you almost to 300hp! Probably not too common though :-)

mtn
mtn MegaDork
7/16/18 6:52 p.m.

I’d go with an outboard for ease of everything. But I really just much prefer outboards IOS anyways

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
7/16/18 7:56 p.m.
mw said:

As someone who has spent these past few days, fixing his boat, get a dead reliable engine and make sure there’s plenty of access to it.

350 with easy in and out with a hoist would be my first and only way to do this. Parts cost alone would save you headache.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/16/18 8:17 p.m.

Light weight, high torque but can spin to the moon, can adapt to a shallow drive....

You need a wrecked Tesla...

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/16/18 9:27 p.m.
mtn said:

I’d go with an outboard for ease of everything. But I really just much prefer outboards IOS anyways

I've had many outboards.  The older 2-strokes are bulletproof.  The newer stuff just hurts me.  Mercury has been bought and is far from its former glory.  OMC was bought by Bombardier and not what it used to be.  The go-to's seem to be Yamaha and Suzuki now.  Nothing against outboards, just prefer I/O.  Parts are 90% automotive and easy to fix.

drainoil
drainoil HalfDork
7/16/18 9:38 p.m.

Curtis, what sort of look are you wanting in your craft? And what kind of hull, V-hull? Flat bottom? Pontoon? Pickle fork? Fiberglass or tin? How fast do you want it to be capable of? And I assume something more for traditional pleasure boating in general as opposed to a fishing type vessel?

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/18 9:49 p.m.

IO is like the worst of all worlds. Big heavy engine that needs to be marinized inside the boat, big hole in the transom, and an outdrive unit that needs it's own share of mechanical maintenance. Either go outboard or inboard..

 

Honda outboards are nice too.

 

*Edit* damn spellcheck

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/17/18 5:05 a.m.
mad_machine said:

IO is like the worst of all worlds. Big heavy engine that needs to be latinized inside the boat, big hole in the transom, and an outdrive unit that needs it's own share of mechanical maintenance. Either go outboard or inboard..

IOs have always worried me for this exact reason. Whenever I do upgrade I want big, late model Yammy, Zuke, or Honda. If I were going vintage it would be Ford or Dodge V8, maybe even a flathead, on a straight shaft.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/17/18 8:16 a.m.

yes, having grown up on the water, I saw many IO boats sink due to a lack of maintenance on that big seal around the IO unit. They also suffer from corrosion and growth due to the inability to completely raise the unit clear of the water, something you can do with almost all outboards.

 

If you do not like the looks of an outboard, check out "Redwing 18" on Chesapeake Marine Designs website. The outboard is in a well, hidden in the stern and under a hatch.

GTXVette
GTXVette SuperDork
7/17/18 8:43 a.m.

I have a hull called python by Vector. they used to be here at lake lanier but have moved up north. they are beautiful lake boats in the smaller size and appear similar as they get larger. mine is only 14.5 and I might be scared of anything bigger than 100 horse outboard . this is also why I was thinking of converting to water pump. sadly our lakes are so full of traffic you spend a lot of time in the air. Atlanta area is reported to have the largest land locked boating pop. anywhere.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/17/18 8:51 a.m.

In reply to mad_machine :

I love pocket cruiser designs like that, although that one looks like a denuded sailboat without the hard top.  One day I might take on building something like that as a retirement project. You are familiar with Duckworks Boat Builder Supply right? Great resource for the build it yourself guy.

Another thing I'd consider is rebuilding an old wood boat. There are still deals to be found out there on older 50s-60s wood lake boats. A lot of the same work as building it yourself but you at least start with something.

When I get around to upgrading, it won't be a home built. I want something more like this:

 

Image result for 197 pioneer venture dual console

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/17/18 9:33 a.m.
drainoil said:

Curtis, what sort of look are you wanting in your craft? And what kind of hull, V-hull? Flat bottom? Pontoon? Pickle fork? Fiberglass or tin? How fast do you want it to be capable of? And I assume something more for traditional pleasure boating in general as opposed to a fishing type vessel?

Bowrider in the 18-20' range, vee hull for simplicity and ride, wide beam (7-8').  Doesn't need to be deep, in fact I prefer shallower hulls for three reasons: weight, ingress/egress from the water and the shore, and appearance.  Dad has a pontoon that we fish from, so aside from occasionally putting a line in the water from this boat, it doesn't need to be a fishing boat.  Capacity for 6, with space to walk around for 4.  With just me I like to see 55-60mph on the water.  That's fun.  I want a Jag XJR for the water.

Building myself it will likely have to be a plywood/fiberglass composite.  I plan on investing in some vacuum bags and I already have a pump.

For reference of something I would really like, here is an inspirational photo of a Chris Craft Launch 22.  A bit of luxury, killer looks, pretty quick.  I would just buy a CC Launch, but that doesn't fulfull the dream of building my own boat.  It also comes with a pricetag that isn't friendly to my wallet.  If you could take one of these, make it 20' with a little less wasted space, built a little lighter, with an aluminum engine, bingo.  My main problem with the last two I/O bowriders I had (19' Baja and my current 18' Ebbtide) is that they are ridiculously heavy with very deep vees.  Both weighed in at 2150 lbs dry and I think the Baja was 18 degrees and the Ebbtide is 21 degrees.  They also both sacrificed a ton of space for stylized gunwales, padded wrap-around couches, etc.  All looks and comfort, at the expense of performance and space.

Drooly photo:

Image result for chris craft launch 22

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/17/18 9:42 a.m.

Another example.  A friend of mine has this boat below.  It is low, wide, fast.  It is the opposite of luxury, but imagine a similar layout/space but done in a luxury bowrider style like the Launch pictured above.  Basically take the looks and luxury of the Launch and stuff it into hull designed for smaller water.

Image result for alumacraft 185

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/17/18 9:45 a.m.

Other inspirations:

Glen-L Thunderbolt:  It is a bit too small.  Vee is too shallow and would keep me at the dock on choppy days.  I could turn it into a bowrider, but the front would be very shallow and small.  But the looks are hot.

Image result for glen-l thunderbolt

 

 

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/17/18 9:52 a.m.
mad_machine said:

Sam Devlin has some beautiful designs and is one of the pioneers of "stitch and glue"

 

Dudley Dix's website is a mess, but he is a good guy, Met him this past spring in Stevensville MD and didn't know it. Very down to earth and willing to talk about anything.

 

Paul Gartside has an amazing cataloge of designs that are mostly very british in design. Nice guy, willing to help with any question you may have. I almost can consider him a friend.

Thank you for the links.  Off to research

No Time
No Time Dork
7/17/18 10:08 a.m.

If you are thinking jet drive, it might be worthwhile to explore some of the newer jet drive set ups. 

As an example, my father’s got a Yamaha SX210 in Florida that has twin 110hp 4 cylinder 4 stroke jet drives. They are about 1L displacement with dry sump oiling and  fuel injection. 

While they don’t have the sound of a big block, they get the boat up to 45mph and are economical to cruise.

It might be tough to find some used for a self built project though  

if you decide to go premade, he is thinking about selling his, and he just had the interior redone  

 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
7/17/18 10:19 a.m.

Those Chris Crafts are one of the prettiest boats built these days. But I just can't dig the I/O layout.

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/17/18 10:28 a.m.
ultraclyde said:

Those Chris Crafts are one of the prettiest boats built these days. But I just can't dig the I/O layout.

Preference I guess.  I have such a huge automotive background that I/Os just fit for me.  Out here in the boonies I know I can get parts at any local junkyard or parts store instead of driving an hour to the nearest Marina (often twice; once to find out they have to order it and a second time to go back and get it) and buying expensive proprietary outboard parts and then trying to fix a fuel pump that is hidden beneath three hours of fuel injection disassembly inside a powerhead that is engineered for compactness.  Outboards have their place and I'm not opposed to having one, it just doesn't fit what I'm intending for this boat.

I also like the fact (at least in both of my I/Os) that once you lift the hatch and fold down the couch, you have complete wide open access to the entire engine.  I can sit beside the engine with 3' on either side.

drainoil
drainoil HalfDork
7/17/18 6:56 p.m.
ultraclyde said:

Those Chris Crafts are one of the prettiest boats built these days. But I just can't dig the I/O layout.

very classy looking craft!

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