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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Diesel or Hybrid???

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Aug. 13, 2011 7:57 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

Ian F wrote: Basically, the car is a comfortable appliance that does my 100+ mile daily commute without complaint. I've been recently doing a lot of driving for work and the 51 cents I get paid for is quite profitable compared the actual 12 cents the car costs me in fuel, maintenance (all DIY) and insurance. I have no plans to replace it as there is nothing available that will haul as much stuff and get high 40's mpg doing it (roughly 50/50 mix).

There's a cost angle that never has been brought up.

I bet that helps pay for the car mileage difference vs car cost a WHOLE lot faster.
Aug. 13, 2011 8:36 a.m. Ian F SuperDork

In reply to alfadriver:

Yep. I got about $126 in my last paycheck for mileage (2 week pay period). Looking at almost $100 so far for the next check.
Aug. 13, 2011 8:58 a.m. FlightService Dork

Diesel, = fuel economy overall to the hybrid, you can convert to biodiesel/wvo and lower your carbon footprint.

Any you can have vehicle that has less environmental impact than a Hummer (cough Prius is worsecough)
Aug. 13, 2011 11:13 a.m. JoeyM SuperDork

Volksrodden wrote:

I have been wondering for a while witch is better in the long run, a diesel or a hybrid car?

Both, with a dose of factory five thrown in for awesomeness

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31166_7-10406217-271.html
Aug. 13, 2011 11:47 a.m. Vigo Dork

Toyota has always been extremely conservative with the life span of the battery pack and it seems at this point they don't seem to have a life span any less than the average gas engine.

Exactly. Batteries are generally lasting longer than the cars, which is why the only way you can get a used one is out of a wrecked car.

Factory battery controls are, believe it or not, more advanced than the engine controls on the same cars, and very strict. The battery isnt allowed to anything that would shorten it's life span. So every battery pack that comes out of a hybrid is like a motor out of a grandma car: always maintained and never abused.
Aug. 13, 2011 11:50 a.m. Vigo Dork

I bet that helps pay for the car mileage difference vs car cost a WHOLE lot faster.

The whole thing about cost difference is a straw man in this demographic. It all goes out the window on the used market. There are a good number of hybrids on the used market going for 1/3 their new price right now, and a few under that. I know one guy on these forums bought a used hybrid for more like 5% of its new price. Is it REALLY still useful to talk about what they USED to cost at that point?
Aug. 13, 2011 2:25 p.m. noddaz New Reader

Being a VW fan there is only one answer...

(And VW does not make a hybrid...)
Aug. 13, 2011 8:40 p.m. Volksrodden Dork

Funny thing is, there hasn't been a VeeDub that has captured me sense the ACVW. Far as the Hybrids go, I don't see a point in using two energy source's then one. Dose any one know how long the electric motors last in most hybrid's?
Aug. 13, 2011 9:36 p.m. Ian F SuperDork

In reply to Volksrodden:

Given that I've seen industrial motors that run Damn near non stop for years that are older than my parents, I wouldn't worry about the motor.

I think as hybrids and electric cars in general become more common, manufacturers will be able to adjust battery and motor sizes better for the application. For example, in a performance car, one may be willing to give up battery life for performance - pulling more energy from it faster.
Aug. 14, 2011 12:36 a.m. Vigo Dork

Dose any one know how long the electric motors last in most hybrid's?

Yes: Forever. I am dead serious. The electric motor in my hybrid literally has no moving parts (that touch anything) and no wear surfaces. The rotor is bolted to the flywheel and supported by the crank bearings. So the only part that wears is the part that's in every NON-hybrid: the gas engine! Mine has 316k on it and i still run 0-20w in it.

I think as hybrids and electric cars in general become more common, manufacturers will be able to adjust battery and motor sizes better for the application. For example, in a performance car, one may be willing to give up battery life for performance - pulling more energy from it faster.

This is what is already happening in the enthusiast arena. Anyone looking for the state of the art as far as performance shouldn't be looking at OEMs that hit the market 4-5 yrs after they were designed to exist under a billion dollars of liability.. they should be looking at what the home-builders did last week to have fun without answering to anyone or paying anyone else's warranty claims.
Aug. 14, 2011 7:22 a.m. Ian F SuperDork

In reply to Vigo: That's not entirely true. Motors have bearings that can wear. In industrial applications they have grease fittings and serviced at regular intervals. How are they lubricated in a hybrid?
Aug. 14, 2011 8:03 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

Electric motors wear: Windings and armatures can break, contacts burn, brushes wear, bearings wear. I even had to replace the housing recently on an industrial motor.

Anyone who has worked in an industrial environment has spent a lot of time rebuilding and replacing electric motors.

Forever isn't close to true.
Aug. 14, 2011 11:11 p.m. Vigo Dork

In reply to Vigo: That's not entirely true. Motors have bearings that can wear. In industrial applications they have grease fittings and serviced at regular intervals. How are they lubricated in a hybrid?

In mine, the rotor is attached to the flywheel, and the windings are stationary in the bellhousing. They do not touch. It doesn't have brushes. The spinning part of the motor is effectively spinning on the crank bearings so it is zero-maintenance and there are no wear surfaces. Some motors certainly do have brushes and their own bearings, etc, but some don't, and even ones that do are likely more reliable than the gas part of the equation due to simplicity and differences in loadings.

Forever isn't close to true.

Look at a 1g insight and tell me what is likely to go wrong with the motor. It's basically just some extra weight bolted to my flywheel, and some COMPLETELY STATIONARY electrical windings. The rotor isnt any more likely to break than a normal flywheel is, and the stationary wiring isnt any more likely to randomly break than the rest of the stationary wiring in a car, like your stereo wiring or your glovebox lamp.
Aug. 14, 2011 11:30 p.m. Streetwiseguy Dork

I just love it when VW fans talk about how cheap and reliable their diesels are. Its gotta be some kind of delusion brought on by deteriorating electrical components, or something.
Aug. 15, 2011 12:51 a.m. Vigo Dork

If they were really that cheap i'd be able to afford one for a project car. A used 1.9 motor by itself goes for almost 2k and a whole car is 4k at a MINIMUM.

Pretty crappy when you just want a motor to put into a $300 car..
Aug. 15, 2011 7:09 a.m. Ian F SuperDork

Streetwiseguy wrote:

I just love it when VW fans talk about how cheap and reliable their diesels are. Its gotta be some kind of delusion brought on by deteriorating electrical components, or something.

Nobody is more surprised than me. I bought my car in spite of it being a VW... I fully expected to be at the Acura dealer within a year to trade it in on an RSX after multiple warranty issues... but the issues never happened... My car has had 2 electrical quirks, neither of which bother me too much:

The turn signal lever was passing an intermittant signal that would cause the relay to click (oddly - no affect on the lights). A couple of squirts with contact cleaner seems to have fixed the problem which hasn't happened in a few years.

In hot weather, the sun roof will develope a mind of it's own and will cycle open and closed by itself. This will be "fixed" by pulling the fuse when I get around to it (I never use the sunroof anyway).

Apparently, my car was built on a Weds. They weren't hung over on Monday nor rushing to get to the bar on Friday.

That said, I usually recommend against TDI's to non-enthusiasts as they simply requires more specific care and planning than the average car owner is willing to deal with.
Aug. 15, 2011 8:33 a.m. njansenv HalfDork

Count me as another VERY happy owner of a VW TDI. Mine is a no-option car (manual windows, no sunroof), which might help, but it has been absolutely trouble free since I bought it 60k kms ago. I've avged 50mpg.

For my driving, I like a diesel. Lot's of highway cruising a constant speed. For my wife (city, stop-and-go, lower miles) I'd be looking hard at a chargeable hybrid setup. She'd RARELY need to use the gas motor.

Nathan
Aug. 15, 2011 1:04 p.m. Twin_Cam SuperDork

Diesel, by far.

Too bad the only way you can get them in this country is in a GIGANTOUR MEGA SUPER GIT-ER-DUN TRUCK or a totally reliable BMW or VW. Wait, when I said reliable I meant you'll be paying more for repairs than you do for the car.

So until they start selling small diesel cars here, a miniscule high-MPG gasoline car is the way to go.
Aug. 15, 2011 1:11 p.m. Vigo Dork

^understanding the strengths and pitfalls of either one is the first step to giving an educated opinion, so i like hearing it.
Aug. 15, 2011 1:46 p.m. DaveEstey HalfDork

noddaz wrote:

Being a VW fan there is only one answer...

(And VW does not make a hybrid...)

Yes they do. It's awful and has been universally maligned for its awfulness.
Aug. 16, 2011 4:14 a.m. Vigo Dork

IF the XL1 ever sees production it will be a game-changer in the sense that someone will finally have built a 1g insight with 10 yr newer technology (equals 150-200mpg).

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