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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Does an engine like this exist?

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April 20, 2009 8:59 p.m. ReverendDexter Reader

More of a mental exercise, but does anyone know if the following exists, or if there's anything close to it:

*V6

*All Aluminum

*pushrod OR SOHC (no DOHC!)

*'78 or newer

*Carb'd would be preferable

Long story short, I'm considering options for a possible swap into the Celica (sorry Toyota, but the R-block is NOT a performance motor), with the hitch that it needs to stay California smog legal (must come from newer model year vehicle).

My thought is maybe there's a equivalent for the LS1 for how the Vortec 4.3L was to the Vortec 350?

I'd love to stay Toyota, but I'm 99% sure the 3VZ only came with an iron block.

Most likely this is just a bunch of mental masturbation, as I've had very little luck with motorswaps in the past, so most likely I'll just build a 20/22R hybrid and call it good.

I'm not looking to build a monster, hp goal would only be 150 or so, as this is a daily driver, and I prefer my dailies be slow cars driven fast. The stock 20R is just a little too slow, lol.

Thanks for any info!
April 20, 2009 9:06 p.m. mw Reader

I'd go for a 2.5 v6 out of a Suzuki Vitara. It doesn't meet your no DOHC needs, but it's not very wide. It is also very light and likely a fair bit less than any iron block 4cyl.
April 20, 2009 9:07 p.m. Luke Dork

Does it have to be a V6? What about a 3S-GE out of a '90s Celica or MR2?

Something like a 18R-GU would probably (more or less) bolt in. That's about 130hp right there. Although finding one could prove to be difficult.
April 20, 2009 9:13 p.m. 96DXCivic Reader

I have to ask why no DOHC?
April 20, 2009 9:19 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

Why look for a V6 if you're only looking for 150 hp?

I may be missing something here.
April 20, 2009 9:42 p.m. Treb New Reader

Yeah... if you want a light-ish 150 HP motor for a F/R layout... Miata?

Somebody had to say it.
April 20, 2009 9:50 p.m. RexSeven HalfDork

Mazda's KL-DE engine is a 3.0L V-6 with aluminum block/heads, EFI, and DOHC. 164hp/156lb. ft. stock. Came in 2nd. gen Ford Probes and 2nd. gen. Mazda MX-6s. I know the EFI and DOHC go against your criteria, but I figured I'd thow it out there. IIRC, they only came in transverse-mount applications, so transmission choices may be an issue. A 5-speed from a Grand Vitara might work, since Suzuki and Mazda co-developed their V-6s.
April 20, 2009 10:05 p.m. Monkeywrench Reader

http://oval.race-cars.com/engsold/chevy/1059764045/1059764045ss.htm

But in all seriousness, the Mazda K-series if you're set on a V6.
April 20, 2009 10:28 p.m. P71 Dork

RWD Celica? For 150HP you might as well go for a 4-Cyl (Miata, Nissan KA, etc). Hell for that low might as well get a Rotary!
April 20, 2009 10:35 p.m. Trans_Maro Reader

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the PRV V6.

I wouldn't recommend it though. Based on my experience with that god-awful engine in my mom's '84 Volvo.

Shawn
April 20, 2009 10:38 p.m. ReverendDexter Reader

I'm not married to the V6, but I like the idea as it's shorter than an I4, and thus would give the car better weight balance, especially were it all aluminum.

No DOHC is for width considerations with a V-engine.

18R-Gs aren't smog legal in any way, shape, or form.

3S-GE is a consideration. 3S-GTE swaps have been done, so most of the groundwork is out there. I could even keep the same series transmission (W-series), so mounts/driveline/etc become a non-issue.

FWD motors will be a PITA, as smog legality requires all stock (or CARB #'d) exhaust components to the last cat. Some rerouting is okay, but I think it's frowned upon.

I've also had a thought towards Camaro V6 motors. I'm more of a Ford guy, but the Ford 3.8 is a giant pile of steaming monkey poo.

And I wouldn't mind a Miata, but the Celica is a hatchback, so much more room for groceries and the like, and I think the 1st gen liftbacks are 10x better looking than any Miata except for these:
April 20, 2009 10:45 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Dork

Beams 3sge. Already came in RWD.

4age 20v?

3tc? You should be able to make 150hp on that motor.
April 20, 2009 10:46 p.m. P71 Dork

Why not a Miata engine then? Or the KA24? The KA especially has good torque with great longevity, I mean it is a truck motor. If your hearts set on a V6 GM used 3400's and 3800's in the Camaro/Bird. The 3800 is a very, very good engine, but it is iron so it's heavy. Lots of options with those though as they had factory carburetored ones, turbos, etc.

If you want a bizarre motor what about the baby Ford I6, the 200? It came in some early fox chassis cars (I had a Granada wagon with one) and with the Ozzie crossflow head can make some serious power. Just throwing out ideas.

Where are you that a 77 still has to pass smog?
April 20, 2009 10:47 p.m. RexSeven HalfDork

P71 wrote:

Where are you that a 77 still has to pass smog?

He's in Cali. 'Nuff said.
April 20, 2009 10:48 p.m. Strizzo Dork

if you don't like the ford 3.8, what about the 4.2? my basically stock with catback duals in my f150 put down 181/226 at the wheels back in the day. also they share bore and some valvetrain parts with the ford 302.

but, like the 3.8, they are iron block/aluminum head
April 20, 2009 10:51 p.m. P71 Dork

Wow, that sucks. I thought they had gone with the 30 year revolving? We have a 25 in WA but it doesn't matter anyways as they only smog in metro Seattle.
April 20, 2009 11:01 p.m. zipty842 New Reader

2rz-fe
April 20, 2009 11:43 p.m. ReverendDexter Reader

P71 wrote:

Wow, that sucks. I thought they had gone with the 30 year revolving? We have a 25 in WA but it doesn't matter anyways as they only smog in metro Seattle.

Used to be 30 year rolling, but then the Governator locked it in place at '75 and earlier for smog exempt. Very frustrating, as Toyota only imported the 1st-gen liftback in '76 and '77, lol.

I've thought about KAs as well, I've got connections with drifters so I could get a single-cam for CHEAP, but my understanding is that they're only about 50 lbs shy of a 5.0.
April 20, 2009 11:44 p.m. 81gtv6 Reader

How about an Alfa V6. Can't beat the sound and they meet all of your requirements.
April 20, 2009 11:45 p.m. ReverendDexter Reader

81gtv6 wrote:

How about an Alfa V6. Can't beat the sound and they meet all of your requirements.

Tell me more!

Of course, what's the chance of actually finding an Alfa motor?
April 20, 2009 11:52 p.m. Opus HalfDork

ReverendDexter wrote:

P71 wrote:

Wow, that sucks. I thought they had gone with the 30 year revolving? We have a 25 in WA but it doesn't matter anyways as they only smog in metro Seattle.

Used to be 30 year rolling, but then the Governator locked it in place at '75 and earlier for smog exempt. Very frustrating, as Toyota only imported the 1st-gen liftback in '76 and '77, lol.

I've thought about KAs as well, I've got connections with drifters so I could get a single-cam for CHEAP, but my understanding is that they're only about 50 lbs shy of a 5.0.

Thought it was 74 and earlier. That helps me in my search for an updated pinto with a 2.3 stock.
April 21, 2009 12:00 a.m. ReverendDexter Reader

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Beams 3sge. Already came in RWD.

4age 20v?

3tc? You should be able to make 150hp on that motor.

BEAMS - not federally legal, much less Cali smog legal.

No 4As. Not nearly enough torque for a 2700 lb car. Plus, 20v, not federal/smog legal.

3T-C - If I'm gonna build up a 3T, I might as well keep the R block.
April 21, 2009 12:08 a.m. 81gtv6 Reader

They are not that scarce, in fact I have one in my GTV6. There was a rusty GTV6 in the classifieds the other day. The SOHC ones come in 2.5 or 3 liter. The 2.5 is @ 160 and the 3 is @ 200.

They are all aluminum and the one in my car will pull hard to the redline, when I first got it I was hitting the limiter all the time. The smaller one likes to rev more and I think it sounds better but it is hard to not like the extra 40 hp.

The only issue may be finding one that is not FI. I know they made them I just don't know if/how many were imported. One other thing, the motors that came in the Milano and GTV6 had a transaxle, I seem to remember that some BMW transmission bolted up, but I may be wrong. I do know there was a company that made high power motors and used a front mounted trans in South Africa.
April 21, 2009 12:15 a.m. Luke Dork

81gtv6 wrote:

The only issue may be finding one that is not FI. I know they made them I just don't know if/how many were imported.

I think only the Alfa 6 came with a carburetored V6, in 2.0l or 2.5l form. But that was with 6 Dell'Ortos . And I'm not sure any of them made it to the 'States.
April 21, 2009 4:27 a.m. ScottRA21 New Reader

ReverendDexter wrote:

I'm not married to the V6, but I like the idea as it's shorter than an I4, and thus would give the car better weight balance, especially were it all aluminum.

No DOHC is for width considerations with a V-engine.

Suzuki H27A V6 is has a 60 degree bank angle, making it quite narrow:

540mm long (includes water fitting at the rear and pulleys & stuff at the friont) 530mm wide, not including the exhaust manifolds. 610mm tall with everything. 460mm from the bottom of the block to the top of the cam covers.

These measurements were taken by a guy down in Australia who I believe had/has plans to shove it into a Starlet.

I also got in contact with Titan Aircraft who utilize the engine in their scaled down Mustangs on how much the engine weighs:
The dry weight of the engine with the conversion kit ready to install is 315 lbs. Our firewall installation, prop and everything is around 400 lbs. The barebones without the conversion kit is between 260 - 270 lbs.

I do not know how much the 5 speed would weigh, but I imagine it can't be much heavier than the stock W50. If it is heavier at all.

....Yes, I want to see this swap done!

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