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69beeguy
69beeguy
6/14/10 3:00 p.m.

hello, i am new to this whole forum thingy so i hope i am not overstepping anything. as of late, i have become very interested in the chumpcar series. the rules are fairly simple. you arent supposed to spend over $500 on the entire vehicle (minus brakes, safety equipment, DOT wheels and tires, drivers luxuries like guages and steering wheel, paint and "engineering"). so basically all engine performance, suspension and drivetrain maintenance and upgrades must not exceed $500. the races are either 2x 7 hour enduros or a 24 hour endurance race. i went to the latest race here in minnesota (brainerd intl raceway). the top 3 finishers were all BMW's. when i did my research on them i found that they basically had a 10:1 weight to hp ratio. i am a mopar man and have been so for a long time. my first thought was an early 70's valiant with a 318. it would have been very easy to break 300hp with the 318 and i knew all about V8's and the dart/valiants. i have changed my mind lately. i am looking into the eagle talons. they are a 2700 lb car and the AWD would help immensely in and out of the corners. they come with 210hp. so here comes my question. for under $500, is it possible to get a 2.0 turbo to 270hp or greater? if so, what are the mods necessary? thanks in advance for any help on this.

4g63t
4g63t Reader
6/14/10 7:16 p.m.

I think 270 RELIABLE HP with a 2G for $500 is a bit optimistic.

69beeguy
69beeguy New Reader
6/14/10 7:29 p.m.

that is why i am here asking you guys. i am an old school V8 guy. this is a road race and the parts can be bought used or on e-bay. it doesnt matter. i am just wondering if we can be competitive with an eagle talon 2.0t.

NYG95GA
NYG95GA SuperDork
6/14/10 7:34 p.m.

I'm not that familiar with the Chumpcar series, but as far as the cars go, another $500 series (LeMons) is likely much the same.

Conventional wisdom in that series feels that American V8s and AWD cars are the first to break down. Just concentrate on reliability. The race is never won on the first lap, but many are lost..

4g63t
4g63t Reader
6/14/10 7:44 p.m.

Forget about any kind of engine performance improvement and put your $500 into timing belt/water pump and lower control arms. They fail CATASTROPHICALLY.

Really, make sure you have spares for the lower control arms and that the bolts attaching them can be easily removed.

Personally, I'd do a 1G, mostly because I can raid my GVR-4 for spares.

4g63t
4g63t HalfDork
6/14/10 7:47 p.m.

And this place is populated by folks who are glad to help you with any info you'd need.

RexSeven
RexSeven Dork
6/14/10 8:18 p.m.

Just remember the old endurance race mantra:

"To finish first, you must first finish.” — Rick Mears

69beeguy
69beeguy New Reader
6/14/10 10:49 p.m.

from what i hear, that 2.0 is a remarkable engine. so the reliability needs to be in the suspension. after going to the race at the beginning of june i found that the cars had DNF's were engine failure and clutch (they put a new one in and completed the second day). i saw a lot of brakes wore out and clutches burnt. other than that there was the electrical "bug" that got into somebodys ignition but thats about it. brainerd is a very flat track with from the exit of turn 10 to the entry to 3 you are flat out. that is why i think the BMW's cashed in. they had 10:1 weight to hp and used it to their advantage. i guess i should have asked "if you had $500 to spend on a 2g eagle talon for a road race, what would you buy?".

Vigo
Vigo HalfDork
6/15/10 9:19 a.m.

The 2.0 is an impressive engine in many respects, but its not the STOCK engine id be worried about.. its the dubiously modified one, and the transmission, axles, wheel bearings, etc.

Not that im saying they'll fail, but an engine alone does not finish the race. Id say keep the engine mods basic and focus your attention on durability aspects like oil cooler, trans cooler (if auto), manual fan control, make sure the pickup doesnt starve in hard turns, etc etc.

ReverendDexter
ReverendDexter Dork
6/15/10 9:43 a.m.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. The power:weight ratio of the BMWs is going to help them in terms of going faster, but it's not going faster that you really need to focus on, it's getting to the end of the race. E30s are fairly simple beasts, so there's not a lot to go wrong. A turbo AWD car has significantly more moving parts, which means more parts that can fail, more interactions that can fail, and more heat to encourage parts and interactions to fail.

I also think you're a bit optimistic with your weight numbers. 2700 lbs sounds more like a FWD N/A car; my understanding is that AWD turbo cars are more like 3k-3200.

Brotus7
Brotus7 Reader
6/15/10 11:00 a.m.

10lbs per hp in a E30 seems optomistic to me. From the factory the 325IS was 160ish hp, and in race trim I don't see them getting much below 2100lbs. Maybe I'm wrong, but if they're doing that then they're well outside of $500.

69beeguy
69beeguy New Reader
6/15/10 11:20 a.m.

the winning car was an '94 BMW E36 sedan. the BMW's were much faster in general and handled way better. granted there were a lot of newcomers there that didnt know about setup much. that E36 was professionally set up. it came in on a huge hauler, had about 15 people to help out. you could hear that everybody in the pits had a specific job. it sounded like these guys had an off weekend from NASA or SCCA and decided to put something together. not fair in my book for an entry level racing circuit, but within the rules so what can you do. i have been doing a lot of research on the eagle and have found that with just simple swaps (1g for 2g stuff) you can make some decent gains. the turbo eagle is 3100lb, but i have seen pages with them in race trim and they are down to 2700 with everything stripped out. the variety of aftermarket stuff on Ebay is quite vast too. and pretty cheap since the kid that had it needs the money.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
6/15/10 12:00 p.m.

69beeguy: Why not go with what you know? Being a Mopar guy, I'm assuming you've got spares out the yin-yang, as well as other Mopar buddies with their own piles of spares, as well as mopar knowledge. Stuff is going to break. Bet on it. I'd use the parts and the know-how you already have rather than diving into the unknown at an enduro.

Having done a few LeMons races in a REALLY fast CRX...that always breaks, I'd say focus on going out there and having fun, not bringing the proverbial nuclear weapon to the knife-fight.

My $.02.

PS: While I'm very familiar with LeMons, I hadn't read up on chumpcar's rules until just now. Seems as though there's a prize for "Best Japanese car with American power." 318-powered Eclipse???

hoochmcfluff
hoochmcfluff New Reader
6/15/10 12:30 p.m.

Im a proud (lol) owner of a 95 talon tsi awd. Its my 3rd one. Here are some considerations The viscous diff- leaking or not? The transaxle - is the plug brass? early ones had a problem leaking and could sieze up the axle if it lost enough fluid balance shaft belt. there is no problem with the TIMING belt, there is with the balance belt. if it snaps, then it takes out the timing belt. those are the big ones. The 4g63t motor is solid. the turbo is solid and puts out 14lbs. most DSM owners rally the cars with 180,000 miles on them. they do not die.

To squeeze out a few extra ponies- hack the airbox replace the intercooler with a cheep front mount off ebay. runs about 100 bucks replace the front bumper with a 97 talon one. it gets more air to the intercooler. cheap manual boost controller. upgrade the BOV. do not atmo vent it, keep it circulating back into the intake. the car expects this and when you atmo vent, it dumps extra gas and bogs your car down cause it thought the extra air would be there. 100 dollar 3 inch downpipe. ebay again....... and get ready to weld a flange on it reflashed eproms depending on year. another hundred bucks, but WELL worth it.

PM me and i can go into more, do a search fro club dsm (the orig site was closed but there is a backup somewhere). there are a bunch of free upgrades and any and every question about these honda killers are there.

Boost kicked in yo

HiTempguy
HiTempguy HalfDork
6/15/10 2:44 p.m.

Here is a simple question: WHY awd on a road course? You gain virtually nothing on asphalt. IMO, a fwd TSi would even be a better way to go. As somebody said, if I were doing ANY racing with a dsm, the first thing I'd do would be the timing/balance shaft belts. This is $$$ and lots of time to do. The great thing about Talon's is when you use them in multi-discipline events that also include going fast in a straight line... like the GRM challenge ;)

Rob_Mopar
Rob_Mopar Reader
6/15/10 3:16 p.m.

Hey 69BeeGuy, I'm with Poopshovel on this one. I don't know the rules on the chumpcar series either, but if it were me I'd snag an '80's M-body 5th Avenue.

Ditch everything unnecessary (HVAC, 100#'s of sound deadener, bordello inspired crushed velvet seats and shag carpet). Get some larger rotors & caliper adapters from a B-body Cordoba. Replace the rubber K-member isolators with the old MP cast iron ones (originally made for police Dippies and Gran Furies), aluminum ones or poly in that order.

Ditch the 7 1/4" rear for an 8 1/4 (if you can find one, look for Volare/Aspen wagons in the yard) and use junked '88-96 Dakotas for gear ratio selections (3.21-3.55-3.91) and limited slip diffs. Otherwise a Ford 8.8 might not be a bad option. Put a cop package rear sway bar on while you are back there. Loose the isoclamp spring isolators and use an earlier lower shock plate like a '69 Bee would use. You can use the double eyelet shocks then too.

Get a Thermoquad iron intake and carb off an earlier car. Don't worry about the bigger ports mismatching on the 318, it will be fine. Spend a little time blending the openings if you want to. Don't go nuts though. Maybe pop a double roller timing chain in there, maybe baffle the oil pan to keep the oil from sloshing. I'd probably even consider running the stock cam. Free up the exhaust. See if some Magnum exhaust manifolds will fit. The '92-93 ones are the ones to look for with the bigger exhaust outlet, but even the later ones breathe better than the original 318 manifolds.

Hang a big trans cooler and power steering cooler off the front. There's plenty of room in the front there for them. Helps keep things alive. I'd run cop wheels. Strong with plenty of airflow but heavy. And every Mopar guy should have some.

If you did go this route, you would have to leave the padded vinyl top.

Marty!
Marty! Dork
6/15/10 6:46 p.m.

69beeguy
69beeguy New Reader
6/15/10 8:39 p.m.

like in my first post, i had thought of an old valiant style body. they are 3100 lbs showroom. use a 318 because they are so reliable. put a magnum head swap on it to bring you to 10:1. back in the day, the AAR's had an oiling problem so they invented the swinging pickup. the oiling problem is solved with the magnum heads due to oiling through the puchrods. baffle the crap out of the pan. use dakota sport exh man (small header). i hadnt looked into brakes closely but i am sure i can get it to stop quickly. the 8 3/4 rear is nearly indestructable and has a wide variety of gears. one problem is the trans. 4 spd A833 are expensive, i dont know if the little 3 spds can handle it, and the truck 5 spds have some pretty bad ratios. another problem is availability of a shell to use in the first place. other than that i was on my way to racing. i am just weighing things. i have boiled it down to the dart/valiant idea and the talon.

westsidetalon
westsidetalon New Reader
6/15/10 8:55 p.m.

road racing a cheap DSM is not a good idea, or any TURBO car for that matter. Turbos=heat and trouble. DSMs are quite heavy and understeer pretty bad. The AWD really isnt gonna make up for much. As stated before don't worry about horsepower , just finish the race. A non turbo/ lighter weight/ simple layout is the answer= 3 series, Miata or CRX

NYG95GA
NYG95GA SuperDork
6/15/10 10:43 p.m.
poopshovel wrote: ...there's a prize for "Best Japanese car with American power." 318-powered Eclipse???

I think poop's onto something there!

hoochmcfluff
hoochmcfluff New Reader
6/16/10 6:45 a.m.

Im a huge fan of the DSM's, but after giving it some thought, it probably isnt the best car for an endurance race.

69beeguy
69beeguy New Reader
6/16/10 8:57 a.m.

well sounds like you guys answered my questions then

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
6/16/10 12:11 p.m.
i hadnt looked into brakes closely but i am sure i can get it to stop quickly.

You'll definitely want to spend some coin on brakes. Good pads (like Porterfield good,) HIGH TEMP fluid, and ducting if nothing else.

racerdave600
racerdave600 Reader
6/16/10 1:01 p.m.

Don't know about Chumpcar, but in LeMons, hp is not going to win you much. 1st thing I noticed is an almost complete lack of driving talent among many entrants, so just knowing what you are doing will improve your chances. Also, the speeds seemed slow enough that it wasn't really much of a concern, and slower cars are ALWAYS in the way. Having a car that holds together seems to be the real ticket. A friend had their 1st gen MR2 running in 6th at one before the motor let go, and most likely would have finished in the top 3 had things held together. It was one of the least powerful cars there.

If you decide to go with the DSM, or whatever car you pick for that matter, concentrate totally on making it reliable, and then add a bit of speed if you can. And if you're not well versed on road racing, pick up a driver coach, that will help more than any mod.

pres589
pres589 Reader
6/16/10 1:43 p.m.

In reply to Rob_Mopar:

I like all this (save for the Thermoquad, what condition are these things in now? I think I'd rather find an all metal carb and rebuild that instead, maybe a Q-Jet?) but one thing I never liked about these cars in my very limited experience driving them was the slow, overboosted steering. What's the grassroots solution to that besides removing the pump belt?

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