Grassroots Motorsports

Register Log in to GRM
- Community

Birthdays
Recently on the Classic Motorsports forums

Subscribe get a full year for only $23.95 Sample Free Test Drive—no strings attached

Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Electronic "Driver's Aids"

1 2

June 21, 2009 12:18 p.m. The_Jed New Reader

First there was abs then traction control next came active yaw and stability controls and now at least one car that I know of will heel-toe for you. Am I the only one who is thoroughly disgusted with this "dumbing down" of the driving experience?

New car buyer-"There's no need for me to learn how to MANUALLY modulate the brake pedal;the car does it for me.There's no need for me to learn how to judge how much traction there is for a certain surface with a particular tire;I just floor it and the car does it for me.There's no need for me to learn how to prevent or recover from an understeer or oversteer condition;the car does it for me.There is no need for me to learn to match revs while downshifting;the BERKLEYING car does that E36M3 for me also." AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Is it really that hard to learn how to DRIVE your car!? /Rant off/
June 21, 2009 12:33 p.m. Morbid New Reader

Jeeze Honey, Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Love, Your adoring wife
June 21, 2009 12:55 p.m. WLB New Reader

That's why I own and drive mostly old stuff.

I attended a two day seminar on chassis set up for oval track cars and one of the attendees asked about traction control. The instructor replied "I don't like it. I want to be the only thing in the car that thinks." I feel exactly the same way.
June 21, 2009 12:57 p.m. White_and_Nerdy New Reader

For what it's worth, I agree. Two winters ago my girlfriend brought her 06 Highlander to a snowy rallycross event. You CAN'T turn off the traction "aids" - all you can do is select a "snow mode" that allows a LITTLE more slippage to get you going. This is necessary because if there's any slippage at all in normal mode, it'll put on the brakes and just stop you. And that's just what happened at this event. I found and pulled the ABS fuses and she drove much better after that - at least, until she overcooked a turn and buried the thing in a snowbank so deep it took a tractor to pull her out...

I guess that result is why such systems exist in the first place. The problem is not being able to predict what they're going to do. Is it going to kick in, or not? Experienced drivers can at least predict what's going to happen in a slide and react accordingly - or sometimes induce a slide to get where they want to go. Or just for fun.
June 21, 2009 2:12 p.m. ignorant PowerDork
White_and_Nerdy wrote:
1. You CAN'T turn off the traction "aids"
this is completely incorrect. If i can do it on my 2007 rav4, you can do it on that car... You just need to know how.

Look people, the stuff isn't going away so learn to live with it or drive old cars.. That's about it. I drive an old car.
June 21, 2009 2:39 p.m. Jensenman MegaDork

I agree; it's like manual transmissions. Most school buses have automatic transmissions because there are so few people nowadays who know how to properly operate a manual transmission. It's the dumbing down thing again; people get used to doing something the easy (read: non-challenging) way and start thinking EVERYTHING needs to involve NO effort or thought. So more stuff is made that requires no effort or thought. Idiocracy, anyone?

Having said that, there are ways around the whole electronic nanny thing.

Wranglers with ESP/BAS can have this permanently disabled. There's a procedure to do so; no kidding it involves cycling the key a certain number of times, turning the steering wheel, pumping the brakes a certain number of times, etc. It can be reenabled by doing another sequence of dance steps.

Most cars with traction control can have this disabled with a button; for instance Jeeps and many BMW's require that you hold the traction control button for 5 seconds. Here's the kicker: the system automatically reegages if the ignition is cycled off and on. So you have to disable it each time you restart the car.
June 21, 2009 2:59 p.m. wherethefmi Dork

I really don't think there's anything wrong with driving nannies, 90%(I made that number up, but you know what I mean) of people are commuting and don't view their cars as fun, just a way to get from a to b. I personally wont buy a car that will not allow me to turn that crap off.
June 21, 2009 3:17 p.m. joey48442 SuperDork

All I can afford is old cars, so um stuck without, for now.

The only one I'm really against is that auto stop thing from Volvo. Some one is going to get used to it, then drive someone elses car, and get into an accident, because that car didn't have it. If someone hits me, and tries to use that as an excuse, I think I will punch them in the neck.

Joey
June 21, 2009 3:26 p.m. benzbaron Reader

I've only driven two cars with gizmos and gadgets but I think the electronics would be usefull in getting to know a car. For instance if you are pushing a car through a tight turn and an ESP light comes on you know that the car is losing traction without having to mitigate the situation yourself. Some of the most dangerous drivers I see are people who drive new cars and don't know how to handle them. Once you become acclimated to driving the car at the limits of what the computers allow you can turn off the traction control and work on driving the car yourself. The real issue is the computers don't like to cede much power to the driver.
June 21, 2009 3:37 p.m. Lugnut Reader

It depends on the systems, the car, and your goals. As long as the aids aren't preventing me from doing what I want, I am all for them.

I love ABS. I prefer driving a car with ABS to one without. Traction control, on the other hand... I have yet to have a car with an ESP or TCS that I didn't have to turn off on the track, just because they are street-oriented programs. I recall a day at Gingerman when one session, I forgot to switch the traction control off in my E46 M3. On the warmup lap I didn't notice it at all, but as soon as I crossed the start line and started driving, the system just reigned everything in. Coming off of 2 at WOT put me roughly mid-track, wondering what happened to all my power.

Some system are track-oriented, though. I love the reviews of newer Ferraris. An above-average track-capable driver will be faster with the nannies turned on than without them. That's wicked. The Fifth Gear piece on the F430 was enlightening.
June 21, 2009 3:55 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

I could turn off the system in my Z3 as well as any of my family's BMWs. I could turn it all the way off. As in, "Let's go berkeley up a brand new set of tires" all the way off. It was as simple as pushing a button in almost every case. I almost never drove with it off though (just for fun), so when it turned itself on after a cycle of the key, I was happy.

Honestly though, it was kind of fun for track days. I usually left it on and it almost never interfered, except for autocross--it had to be off for that. Sometimes it would kick in and brake the inside wheel to help out with a turn (definitely in auto-x), but it mostly sat around and waited for a big mistake.

I like car tech. As long as it doesn't interfere with my driving or become obnoxious, it is welcome. Well, as long as I can turn it OFF.
June 21, 2009 4:18 p.m. stuart in mn Dork

Jensenman wrote: I agree; it's like manual transmissions. Most school buses have automatic transmissions because there are so few people nowadays who know how to properly operate a manual transmission.

Last week I rode in a vintage public transit bus (it was a Mack, built in 1948 I believe.) The thing had manual steering, along with a manual shift crash box with no clutch pedal. Apparently there was some sort of centrifugal clutch or torque converter in the thing; the driver had to do some fancy work with the gas pedal and shift lever to get from one gear to the next without a lot of grinding. He was getting a real workout turning corners, too - there's a reason old buses had giant steering wheels.
June 21, 2009 5:28 p.m. Tommy Suddard SonDork

I hate all of the electric aids in a car. After all the years in the kart, even ABS throws me off.
June 21, 2009 5:29 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

I wonder how many have wives or relatives that have had their lives saved by these devices?

I'm just saying..
June 21, 2009 5:41 p.m. Morbid New Reader

ignorant wrote:

I wonder how many have wives or relatives that have had their lives saved by these devices?

I'm just saying..

What are you trying to say about female drivers?

I am Jed's wife (see 2nd post where I gave him a hard time about this thread), and I can recall several instances where ABS put me IN harm's way by removing my ability to avoid the obstacle. The TCS in that particular car was ALWAYS turned off for a similar reason, even with 8+ inches of unplowed snow in the ground. I was SO happy to get my "new" car that was too old (by Subaru standard's) to be equipped with any of that garbage.
June 21, 2009 5:43 p.m. Apexcarver UltraDork

i like ABS because it prevents me from flatspotting my Rcomps, I hate it when i get feedback at inopportune time on course though.

it rarely happens though, so i dont think I am going to disable it.

none of my current vehicles have anything beyond ABS.
June 21, 2009 5:43 p.m. M030 Reader

I was almost killed by one of these stupid nanny devices.

This past winter I was driving a relative's 2007 Mercedes Benz C-Class (I think it was a C240) and, while in the left lane travelling at 72mph, the right rear tire blew.

The traffic was very dense. The car began to rapidly decelerate...the stupid ESP had somehow turned off the (electronic) throttle. What I needed to do was to modulate the throttle myself to safely merge right and get over to the shoulder. Instead, I was coming to a (rapid!) stop in the left lane - with an 18-wheeler closing in on me!
June 21, 2009 5:50 p.m. Nitroracer Dork

For the majority of people traction control is another option the car has with a pretty light on the dash they only worry about when something breaks. If it didn't announce itself they wouldn't know any better.

I think the enthusiast view on these automotive helpers is that one would rather see what they can do on their own before someone else steps in to help, whether it is for the better or the worse.

I like the abs system in my probe because I could stop in the snow, but I hate the traction control on my focus because it doesn't like a burnout. I once had a nissan that refused to stop altogether at a gas pump because the abs kicked on when it shouldn't have. I ripped out everything abs related on it because it scared the crap out of me.
June 21, 2009 6:42 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

I did a story about two years ago comparing track times with the various levels of electronic aids on and off. I think Baxter has posted this online somewhere. If not, he should.
June 21, 2009 6:45 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Here it is:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/digital-revolution/
June 21, 2009 7:24 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

Morbid wrote:

I am Jed's wife (see 2nd post where I gave him a hard time about this thread), and I can recall several instances where ABS put me IN harm's way by removing my ability to avoid the obstacle.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense...

Are you saying that if your front wheels were locked you would be able to avoid an obstacle?

and I can tell you many circumstances where the shortened stopping distances have helped...

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/digital-revolution/ <--- and the data proves that ABS helps.. and as soon as conditions get worse the "nanny aides" work.

Also.. ABS was so effective as traction control in F1 that it was banned.

I think all of the hate for these systems, in normal situations is undue. I think if people actually learned how to use them to their advantage they'd like them on the street.
June 21, 2009 7:30 p.m. wlkelley3 HalfDork

I think it comes down to this: all of us know and understand how a car works and drives. We prefer to be in control. I think wherethefmi has it down. Most "other" people nowadays don't want to know. My wife don't want to know. She kinda has a weak excuse, she grew up in another country where only the rich owned cars and learned to drive when she came to the states. She has no desire to learn stick shift when autotrans will do it for her. I don't mind putting her with the nannies. Me, I'd just as soon do it myself.
June 21, 2009 7:40 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

They also work in unfamiliar situations. Let's face it, we're all human. You might know Summit Point like the back of your hand—but what if a deer jumps out in front of your car on the drive home? That's where some of those things REALLY help.

I like them on for street use but I turn them off when the magnetic numbers go on the door.

Per
June 21, 2009 7:43 p.m. The_Jed New Reader

Nice write-up with interesting results. I don't believe I could have remained quite as objective and unbiased.

What really opened my eyes to the egregious nature of the nannies was driving my(actually the family's,as in mine,wife's and kids') '04 Chevy Venture during this past winter.It has 4-wheel ABS and a foot operated hand brake .This gave rise to the question;"What should I do if I happen upon an unseen ice patch in the middle of a turn and begin to understeer toward a curb,parked vehicle or Gary Busey laying in the road?"

If I were in my Subaru I could either left-foot-brake or tug on the hand brake to bring the rear out and (relatively)safely make it through the turn. This is the Venture though and if you attempt left-foot-braking the nanny says "no no no" and your efforts to regain control are turned into a buzzing pedal.The emergency/parking brake is out of the question as it is foot operated and chances are if you're sawing on the wheel after engaging it the brake will likely be forgotten about and left on,until you continue rotating and hit whatever it is that you were trying to avoid with the rear instead of the front.So,I am left with one of two options;forget everything I know and just slam on the brakes or forget about stopping and try to steer out of it. Ergo the frustration.

I believe all of these "aids" are equivalent to a band aid on a compound fracture.The real problem lies in the horrid state of affairs of the "driver's education" system.My children are going to attend Solo2 and Rallycross events as soon as they are the minimum age.

/ Just a frustrated 220 pound troglodyte's opinion./\
June 21, 2009 7:54 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

The_Jed wrote: So,I am left with one of two options;forget everything I know and just slam on the brakes or forget about stopping and try to steer out of it.

what about jamming on the brakes and steering? Thats how they are designed.. You can brake and steer with ABS... Now some systems are better than others, buuttttt...

My old ranger had rear wheel abs, It was horrible.

I am not trying to be a Richard; I just think there are some really well designed systems out there and they get a bad rap.

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.