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93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
8/5/11 3:21 p.m.

Ok so I have a Mini MS that I got for super cheap (~$40) that has never been used but I have no manual or anything on it. Is there somewhere I can find instructions for this setup and anything else I might need? I am planning on running the fuel with the Mini MS and run the ignition with the distributor and a Petronix Ignitor. I was thinking of adding an SLC OEM as well. Would there be any difficulty with that? Basically I have never really worked with engine management much and so any direction would be great.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
8/5/11 3:54 p.m.

The Mini-MS was not an authorized version of the MegaSquirt - it has its own website out there by the guy who designed it, but that's about all the support for it. It isn't supported through normal MegaSquirt forums or by any legitimate MegaSquirt dealers. Sorry, but you've picked up a rather difficult starting point when it comes to support.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/5/11 4:07 p.m.

What's the web page for it? $40 is pretty appealing if there are others out there.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/5/11 4:48 p.m.

I would sell it for a slightly less appealing price and pick up an MS1 v3.0 and my NAW OEM and start over.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/5/11 4:53 p.m.

Are we talking microsquirt here?

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/5/11 4:57 p.m.

http://www.umsforum.mini-cooper-clubman.de/YaBB.pl

donalson
donalson SuperDork
8/5/11 9:24 p.m.

nope mini-ms http://www.mini-ms.com/

awesome idea... sounds like he just didn't go though the right channels before he designed/built them... targeted more to motorcycles and the likes...

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
8/6/11 9:31 a.m.
alfadriver wrote: What's the web page for it? $40 is pretty appealing if there are others out there.

$40 is the price I paid for it second hand but it hasn't been used.

dean1484
dean1484 SuperDork
8/6/11 2:22 p.m.

Dam that is intresting. I wish I had seen that before I got the MS2 V3 I does everything I needed.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/6/11 10:51 p.m.

I miss my MS2 v3. You are giving me dirty thoughts, Dean.

dean1484
dean1484 SuperDork
8/7/11 9:41 a.m.

I will eventually be adding boost so I am really glad I got the unit I got. But that looks so simple!!! I was just having this discussion over on autosport labs that there really should be a MS for idiots. One that sets the parameters for the various sensors, injectors etc and it is up to you to make the hardware match the MS unit. NO jumpers no 500 pages of infinite choices to confuse you. I want a dumb as a stump simple MS unit.

Thread at Autosport>>> http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?t=3251

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/7/11 10:11 a.m.

In reply to dean1484:

Not that I follow the MS world all that close, but what you are saying, dean, is there needs to be a forum over there that does the very simple outline that so many people want to do.

Dumb as a stump is relative- no programmable ECU is "dumb"- it's more about a simple, straightforward solution.

Which is a brilliant question to ask.

Should I dare to go to that link? I don't need more projects...

dean1484
dean1484 SuperDork
8/7/11 1:33 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to dean1484: Should I dare to go to that link? I don't need more projects...

I double dare you.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/7/11 3:53 p.m.

Would be cool. Just make a simple one with these rules:

  • 36-1 trigger wheel
  • coil packs only (wasted spark)
  • Bosch 2 wire PWM idle valve

Give it built in inputs for launch control, vehicle speed (boost by gear), wideband O2 sensor, and table switching, and built in outputs for boost control, nitrous solenoid, shift light, and coffee maker.

To be fair we could just make a site called something like 'simplesquirt' (LOL?) that showed you how to install a MS2 v3 on any vehicle 8 cylinders or under using very simple stuff.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 HalfDork
8/7/11 5:47 p.m.

In reply to Taiden:

I totally dig the idea of simplesquirt. I'm in Dean's camp of 'dumb as a stump' when it comes to this, no matter how much I study.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/7/11 6:22 p.m.

The biggest issue with megasquirt is a lot of guys out there (me included) try to get it to run on all stock gear. There are some good reasons to do this (swap in your stock ECU with zero downtime), but on the whole it's not really that important... and it can be very complicated! Because of this, there is a lot of documentation that doesn't apply to your setup.

If you ignore all your stock gear and pretend you're converting a carb'd engine, megasquirt installs are so incredibly easy!

donalson
donalson SuperDork
8/7/11 10:17 p.m.

the issue with MS is also why it's so great... it's inexpensive, DIY open source... which means it can be modified to do TONS of things...

if you use it as it was built (a fuel only computer) it doesn't get much more simple.... the complication comes when you start adding other things... like spark

for the volvo ignition it's pretty well layed out but there are a number of ways to go about it... the instructions on DIYautotune to mod the standard MS was simple and straight forward but from reading on turbobricks and some of the MS manual stuff I had to add some resistors for the ignition because of what ignition module I used.

I think MS would be about as simple as you could get if you fuel injected something with a vac advanced dizzy.

if you don't want to deal with jumpers and the like you could always buy it modded... but even then you need to know how to wire it up with the modding...

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
8/8/11 9:49 a.m.
donalson wrote: awesome idea... sounds like he just didn't go though the right channels before he designed/built them... targeted more to motorcycles and the likes...

That's about my take on it too, although it also seems to have missed out on the ignition control developments.

I will eventually be adding boost so I am really glad I got the unit I got. But that looks so simple!!! I was just having this discussion over on autosport labs that there really should be a MS for idiots. One that sets the parameters for the various sensors, injectors etc and it is up to you to make the hardware match the MS unit. NO jumpers no 500 pages of infinite choices to confuse you. I want a dumb as a stump simple MS unit.

That is an interesting idea. Part of the problem is striking the right balance between simple enough and giving it enough features - I've noticed a couple of fairly advanced feature requests creeping into some of the requests for the "simplified" version of the MS in this thread and the one on the Autosport Labs forum.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/8/11 12:07 p.m.

I might be missing the boat, not knowing intimate details about MS, but it seems as if you really want a list of parameters that you can just turn off.

The risk of open source anything is that features are added without the benefit of turning them off when not needed. (well, it happens in non open source, too.... ).

All you need is a calibration list with all of the sub-sections with calibration switches.

but I also see that your requests seem easy, but are not so much. Being that the MS supports so many versions of ignition and trigger wheels- the EDIS set up for that isn't what I would call the most obvious/easy. Well, unless you are talking about a Ford engine that has it already. Attaching a 36-1 wheel or a 60-2 wheel on my Alfa's main is exactly the same problem, and teh wiring specific to support an external ignition module isn't trivial. So it's not really the most obivious/brain dead set up.

Even the sensors all have issues. MAP is easy, since it's on the computer. But ECT isn't- not all sensors use the same range. So for my Alfa, which one should I choose? The most obvious GM or the best fit Bosch?

The choices are there so that you can take 90% of what you already have and make it work. Unless that 90% is really a couple of screws. When you start with nothing- that's what makes the choices hard to do.

Here's what I would suggest: 1) what's the easiest timing wheel you can put on the engine- Bosch (60-2), Ford (36-1), or other? Choose the easiest, as long as there's at least 30 teeth. 2) based on 1, pick the easiest ignition. Bosch- make the simple fit. Ford- EDIS, other- what fits?

and go from there. Honestly, the most important and difficult part is the ignition. Once that's chosen, and assuming you have a manifold you can use- the choices will be made based on the hardware you choose.

Does that help at all?

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/8/11 12:31 p.m.

Either I misunderstand your point, or I completely disagree. We would like to focus on how to get megasquirt running on any 4 to 8 cyl engine as simply and cost effectively as possible

  • Fit a 36-1 trigger wheel
  • Buy GM sensors on rockauto for $5 a pop
  • injectors are easy enough
  • use the MAP sensor on the unit
  • and fire coil packs or wasted spark subaru coils. Everyone likes coil packs!
  • and finally use a Bosch 2 wire pwm idle solenoid, $30 on rock auto

That right there is 99% of the setup, and can be applied to every engine out there. The only hard part is fitting the wheel. If someone would cut wheels on an EDM for any size crank, this would not be an issue!

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/8/11 12:38 p.m.

In reply to Taiden:

Some engines already come with a timing wheel. OR one that is easy to fit.

On my Alfa, even though I can get EDIS parts really, really easy, I would still go the 60-2 tooth weel, since I can get a pully with it on already. No fab at all.

Doing anything post 1990- I would leave the wheel alone, and choose the rest of the parts based on it.

That one fit is so very non trivial, it's not funny. EDMing a wheel requires a drawing- detailed drawings of your specific pully. Do you have that? Do you really think anyone else has that? The wheel IS an issue for a very good reason.

Unless you can find this "someone" person. Considering that there's a lot of "someone" should- you might find them incredibly busy.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/8/11 12:55 p.m.

I'm not saying everyone should use a 36-1 wheel, I'm saying that 99% of all setups would work with the above, and people should know this. If you want to use your stock trigger wheels, by all means, use them! Chatter about the thousands of different setups clutters newbies brains about megasquirt's difficulty. There should be a go to formula that works on all engines. If we can create this best fit formula, it can be modified to fit others uses. In your example, using your stock trigger wheel.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
8/8/11 12:59 p.m.

We already have a line of laser-cut crank triggers in three sizes. They are a bit one size fits all and take some fabrication to install. We've contemplated making some bolt on trigger wheels, but it takes a fair amount of work and test fitting to get everything right, including suitable sensor mounting brackets. So, bolt on trigger wheels would either need to be limited to some of the more popular engines, or priced like the bolt on kits that Electromotive dealers have come up with. Either way, you can see why there's a lot of people who have asked for native support of their factory trigger setup...

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/8/11 1:00 p.m.

In reply to Taiden:

I don't disagree that the general set up you put up won't work for most users.

But that the 36-1 toothed wheel may stop most who are not fabricators. Which are most.

And since everything is driven off of the timing wheel- that's where you start.

Either you have a single solution that is hard to put together, or a bunch of solutions that may be easier to put together.

It's either daunting due to the wheel fabrication/install or the computer set up. You choose.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/8/11 1:57 p.m.

I don't know about every CC, but my local CC would machine me a trigger wheel with an EDM machine without any hassle. Good machining at a low price is often close to home.

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