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  Feb. 6, 2009 9:03 a.m. Scott Lear Club Editor

  skullsroad wrote: The last major accident I had ended up with the shiny side down. An E36 lost it around a decreasing apex and I had to choose his car or the mountain. I chose mountain and ended up driving up a dirt mound and sliding on my passenger side.

  This one makes me cringe a bit.

  Rather than launch a tirade about unsafe street driving, I'll continue with the HPDE advice: You're going to have an instructor in your car, and they're going to be far more interested in getting back to their family than seeing your badass 10/10ths skills. Listen to the advice they give, and learn how to manage your car and predict the actions of the cars around you so you don't end up in a situation like the one you describe above.

  EDIT: Deleted a very confusing "not" that had crept into the paragraph.

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  Feb. 6, 2009 11:23 a.m. Salanis UltraDork

  skullsroad wrote:

  I've tired auto-x and came away feeling like I flushed $40 or so dollars down the drain. No elevation changes, boring course layouts, not enough seat time etc etc etc. Maybe if it was cheaper and you got a lotta runs in. I know its different in other regions (mine is the bay area of CA) but my experience was less than thrilling. I'd rather drive my favorite road for free for hours.

  I'm hoping to learn a lot from this experience and make it a regular occurrence in my life. Really, driving is all I care about.

  Okay, I'm in Sacto, so I can empathize a with your Auto-X views. The quality of events varies a lot with whoever is organizing it. Sounds like you may have run with SCCA. I don't care for their auto-x'es.

  In the bay area, try one of the marquee clubs: Porsche, Lotus, and Datsun 510 clubs are all supposed to host very good events. I believe common locations are Golden Gate Park, Marina Airport, and the paddock at Infineon. Depending on where exactly you're at, Sacto Porsche club runs their events in Stockton.

  Get up to Thunderhill sometime. There are lots of inexpensive events there, and it is one of the safest and most beginner friendly tracks imagineable.

  If you've been driving for years on your own, you have bad habits. You will have a lot of work to do to unlearn those bad habits. Be prepared to slow waaay down at your first track day. Going fast is less about driving the car hard, and more about driving the car right.

  What group is organizing the event that you're planning to hit?

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  Feb. 6, 2009 11:40 a.m. OFracing New Reader

  Bring a friend to event to keep an eye on you and the car. You'll be all fired up when you come off the track, it's easy to miss something on the car or forget to take care of yourself.

  Between every session: Make a checklist and go over it. Check the brake fluid, water, lug nuts, air pressure, gas and oil. Clean the windshield. Take a drink, grab a bite, hit the head.

  Go over each lap in your mind, or with the friend, real time if possible, and try to remember where you braked, where you got on the gas. What worked, what didn't. Watch the cars in the other groups, especially at the corner you're having a problem with (you will have at least one). Look at the corners you feel good about, what are you doing different there? What are other cars doing, both good and bad.

  If you have one or can borrow one put a video camera in the car. Besides having something you can show to your friends, they're great learning tools. The camera doesn't lie. You may think you have the right line at the time but a review in the cold light of day will show you the truth and help you become a better driver.

  You're not going to sleep well the night before, accept that now. It won't help if you make a party night out. Save that for the night after. Get together with some friends, maybe some of the other drivers at the event and watch the tapes or just BS about the day, decompress. It's a great bonding experience. I've made friends at the track from all walks of life, from house painters to doctors and we all have a common itch to scratch, the need for speed.

  enjoy

  mike

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  Feb. 6, 2009 12:14 p.m. willy19592 New Reader

  Scott Lear wrote:

  skullsroad wrote: The last major accident I had ended up with the shiny side down. An E36 lost it around a decreasing apex and I had to choose his car or the mountain. I chose mountain and ended up driving up a dirt mound and sliding on my passenger side.

  This one makes me cringe a bit.

  Rather than launch a tirade about unsafe street driving, I'll continue with the HPDE advice: You're going to have an instructor in your car, and they're going to be far more interested in getting back to their family than seeing your badass 10/10ths skills. Listen to the advice they give, and learn how to manage your car and predict the actions of the cars around you so you don't end up in a situation like the one you describe above.

  EDIT: Deleted a very confusing "not" that had crept into the paragraph.

  As a "novice Instructor" (yes we get trained as well) in w2w, and a hpde instructor for a dozen events I must say you put that very well, I couldnt figure out how to phrase it without looking like a grumpy old man ;) you did a good job.
  

  lol Look back at my first post on the thread about the progression getting done fast.. had me scared as well lol

  And the poster that talked about finding Marque clubs to ax with, hit the nail on the head as well. I have done the scca ax, and just would rather not. However Windy City Miata puts on a first class event, cheap, with tons of runs, and I enjoy every time I go. Even was Class champ 2 years ago (big whoop lol)

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  Feb. 6, 2009 1:17 p.m. Joe Gearin Associate Publisher

  Don't be disheartened by the words of caution. Nearly all of us thought we would be the fastest thing on 4 wheels before our first track day. Chances are after this discussion, you still will think you are hot sh$t behind the wheel......until you see what it is really like.

  Just be courteous, and realize that the instructors have walked more than a mile in your shoes. Listen to them, it may seem like they are making you slower, but they are really giving you the skill and knowledge to go faster. Also, going fast isn't really the point. Going fast in a repeatable manner, without going "off" is the goal.

  And please, please don't drive what you think is 10/10ths on the street anymore. My Mom drives on the street, my brothers, cousins and friends drive on the street. If you come around the corner sliding like a drifto champ, they just may over-react and drive that minivan full of kids over a cliff. Sure they will end up crashing because they over-reacted to your asshattery, but you will be to blame. Try and live with that. We've all done stupid things on the street, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.
  

  But enough of the doom and gloom! You are going to have a life-changing experience. It will be a blast. Just try to approach it with humility and patience.

  Have fun and good luck!

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  Feb. 6, 2009 11:33 p.m. friedgreencorrado New Reader

  skullsroad wrote:

  I've learned a lot of lessons (mental lessons, not just skills) on that road. The last major accident I had ended up with the shiny side down.

  Dude, the "last major accident"? Have you had others? Holy E36 M3! Gotta give it up for you for finally leaving the street behind and deciding to run the thing where it belongs, though.

  skullsroad wrote: I've tired auto-x and came away feeling like I flushed $40 or so dollars down the drain. No elevation changes, boring course layouts, not enough seat time etc etc etc.

  Where did you place? The stopwatch never lies, and regardless of how great or lousy the course, everyone has to run down the same one. If you didn't win your class by a second or more, you didn't run 10/10ths on that day.

  skullsroad wrote: Maybe if it was cheaper and you got a lotta runs in. I know its different in other regions (mine is the bay area of CA) but my experience was less than thrilling. I'd rather drive my favorite road for free for hours.

  I still think this is a bad idea, unless you're running about 5/10ths with your girl in the other seat and a picnic lunch in the back. Oncoming traffic (even if it's other enthusiasts) sucks. Didn't you say it was a guy in an E36 that caused you to roll the car? Just imagine what would have happened it it had been an inattentive soccer mom on her cel in a minivan.

  skullsroad wrote: I'm hoping to learn a lot from this experience and make it a regular occurrence in my life. Really, driving is all I care about. It's not even about the cars. Hell, I could be driving my old Dodge D50 long-bed and still be having a blast.

  You've got the right idea, but before now, you've been picking the wrong place to express it. Make the track the place where you feel the passion.

  And x346,349,094 on the "listen to your instructor" stuff. Don't be like the guy in the Viper in the vid I'm posting. The driver in the on-car claps because the Viper driver had been bragging about his "street skills" (ROFLMAO!) all weekend.

  http://www.carolinaspeedzone.com/road_atlanta_dec2006/road_atlanta1_dec06.wmv

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  Feb. 7, 2009 12:22 a.m. skullsroad New Reader

  Like I said before, I'm a driving sponge. The man or woman in my passenger seat on race day will be God to me. It's humbling to hear things like "if you have been driving by yourself all this time you have a lot to learn". Maybe I should have left the whole 10/10ths thing out of the post...sometimes information is best left on the down low. I'm really not some hot shot kid driver. I love driving too much to be some ass-hat chump pulling my e-brake around hairpins. I used to go out at 2 am and film my runs, review and drive again the next night, every night. There is a part on the road that forces you to sacrifice turn A to take the right line on turn B. The moment I figured that out was like winning the lottery. I treated driving like homework.

  friedgreencorrado: I've had other accidents on that road but I guess they were less major. Once, I lost my place due to some kind of brain fart and understeered right into the mountain.

  The auto-x even was indeed run by the SCCA. I don't remember where I placed. Heck, I don't even remember what group I was in. A friend of mine is heavily involved with the SCCA and encouraged me to show up for a few weekends. He kinda just put me in any run group. The highlight of that day was a friend of mind slapped some 17x7.5 Slipstreams and 245/45r17 RS-2s on his dads 1990 Dodge Dynasty. Holy body lean!!!

  Thanks for the words of wisdom guys. I'm shopping around for helmets as we speak. I've heard it said that you shouldn't go cheap on helmets since the soft-goods underneath are so valuable. What about these $600 helmets I'm looking at? Yikes.

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  Feb. 7, 2009 12:37 a.m. Salanis UltraDork

  skullsroad wrote:

  The auto-x even was indeed run by the SCCA. I don't remember where I placed. Heck, I don't even remember what group I was in.

  Thanks for the words of wisdom guys. I'm shopping around for helmets as we speak. I've heard it said that you shouldn't go cheap on helmets since the soft-goods underneath are so valuable. What about these $600 helmets I'm looking at? Yikes.

  On the "cost" of auto-x. What's the cost of putting the car shiny-side-down because there's no margin for error? Sure, it's possible go shiny-side-down at a track, but it usually takes about 3 mistakes in a row.

  Yup. I figured you'd done SCCA. Look into those Marque clubs. Doesn't matter if you don't own one of those cars. I love Porsche and Lotus clubs. They're great.

  What you've heard about helmets is wrong. Any equally Snell Rated helmet will protect your noggin as well as any other. The extra money usually buys you weight, features, and more comfy materials, but not actual safety. Heck, GRM had a review of helmets a while back, and they didn't like the most expensive ones as much as some others. I got a $60 Snell 2000 motorcycle helmet off EBay.

  If you're looking for a really good deal on a nice helmet, this is something a vendor from Santa Rosa posted on the NorCalDrift board; Snell SA '05 helmets for $150, that normally sell for $200.: http://norcaldrift.org/index.php?showtopic=1940

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  Feb. 9, 2009 2:46 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  I have a motorcycle helmit as well. It's fine. It has lots of vents though that are useless because they don't get airflow. Instead they almost get in the way since I drive small convertibles. But it's not usually an issue since I'm under six feet tall.

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  Feb. 9, 2009 2:50 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  By the way, how old are you exactly? Just curious. I think that the sooner one gets out on the track, the better.

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  Feb. 9, 2009 3:14 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

  confuZion3 wrote:

  I have a motorcycle helmit as well. It's fine. It has lots of vents though that are useless because they don't get airflow. Instead they almost get in the way since I drive small convertibles. But it's not usually an issue since I'm under six feet tall.

  The only difference between an M (Motorcycle) and SA (Special Applications, aka car racing) helmets is that the SA helmets have to be made from flame retardant materials. The impact standards are identical.

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  Feb. 9, 2009 11:06 p.m. friedgreencorrado New Reader

  Salanis wrote:

  confuZion3 wrote:

  I have a motorcycle helmit as well. It's fine. It has lots of vents though that are useless because they don't get airflow. Instead they almost get in the way since I drive small convertibles. But it's not usually an issue since I'm under six feet tall.

  The only difference between an M (Motorcycle) and SA (Special Applications, aka car racing) helmets is that the SA helmets have to be made from flame retardant materials. The impact standards are identical.

  I didn't know that. I was about to adress the MC helmet stuff because I'd always thought Auto helmets were made to impact, and bike helmets were made to slide.

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  Feb. 10, 2009 12:13 a.m. ReverendDexter Reader

  I just did my first track day on Saturday up at Thunderhill. Absolute blast.
  

  My only peice of advice would be to not worry about being fast. You can't win an HPDE. Just get out there and drive. One of my sessions I noticed myself getting tired and starting to get stupid, so I just brought the car in. Sure, I lost 10 minutes of my track time, but I was also able to drive the car the 150 miles home.

  Oh - and be prepared to buy a LOT of gas. S2ks get about 5mpg on track, I think I was getting somewhere around 3 or 4.

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  Feb. 10, 2009 5:18 a.m. blaze86vic Reader

  You will learn a lot, but you will need to be open as the others have said. No matter what you think about your own skill levels, go there and pretend you suck at driving. Start fresh, as some of your old driving habits may hold you back once you learn a few new tricks. After day one is finished, then start blending the tricks you already know, with the ones you have learned.

  And I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, but this is a strait truth. If someone crashes on at their first HPDE (that's crash, not spin), almost everyone in the paddock will immediately assume the driver was a moron. I'm not calling you a moron or anything like that, and I'm sure you wont crash, but it's a representation of what all veteran HPDE go-rs know. Ease up to your limit, don't run up to it. The key to driving the fastest is to know where your own limits are, because as you are aware, once you drive 11/10ths, you are the slowest person out there.

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  Feb. 10, 2009 9:47 a.m. Scott Lear Club Editor

  I'm sure you'll do just fine, the fact that you're here doing pre-HPDE research shows you have the right attitude, regardless your street history. Frankly, if you're like I was in my younger days, participating in track stuff will mellow you out on the street.

  ReverendDexter brings up a great point; know when you're finished for the day, and realize that it has nothing to do with the printed schedule. If you're feeling run down during the last session, cut it short or skip it all together. You might do the math in your head and figure out that you're missing out on $40 worth of track time that you already paid for, but $40 is a bargain compared to any on-track incident I can think of.

  On the flip side of that coin, temper your excitement during the first session. This is much easier when you're a rookie and you have an instructor in the car telling you to chill, but later in your HPDE career when you've been signed off solo, it's something to keep in mind. Nothing worse than going out on cold tires with a cold brain and ending your weekend super early with a stupid mistake. It seems like somebody stuffs it during Saturday warm-up every single race weekend, and it's rarely due to a mechanical error.

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  Feb. 10, 2009 10:11 a.m. willy19592 New Reader

  ^^ ^^ Skippy school stressed that the first lap, or 2 should ALWAYS be a recon lap, to get your mind, and your cars mind right.

  I have never forgot that, and always relay that knowledge to new students.

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  Feb. 10, 2009 10:39 a.m. Salanis UltraDork

  ReverendDexter wrote:

  I just did my first track day on Saturday up at Thunderhill. Absolute blast.
  

  Hooray! Congratulations! How did you do? What happened? How much fun did you have? What did you learn? When are you going again?

  You should start a new thread to discuss.

  I'm gonna be out there Friday. It will be my girlfriend's second track day. But her first was such a bad experience, she's kind of starting over from scratch.

  willy19592 wrote:

  ^^ ^^ Skippy school stressed that the first lap, or 2 should ALWAYS be a recon lap, to get your mind, and your cars mind right.

  I have never forgot that, and always relay that knowledge to new students.

  +1 on the warmup/recon lap. Most groups will run the first lap under a full-course yellow to enforce that. But you should be doing it yourself.

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  Feb. 12, 2009 1:29 a.m. friedgreencorrado New Reader

  Salanis wrote:

  ReverendDexter wrote:

  I just did my first track day on Saturday up at Thunderhill. Absolute blast.
  

  Hooray! Congratulations! How did you do? What happened? How much fun did you have? What did you learn? When are you going again?

  You should start a new thread to discuss.

  I'm gonna be out there Friday. It will be my girlfriend's second track day. But her first was such a bad experience, she's kind of starting over from scratch.

  willy19592 wrote:

  ^^ ^^ Skippy school stressed that the first lap, or 2 should ALWAYS be a recon lap, to get your mind, and your cars mind right.

  I have never forgot that, and always relay that knowledge to new students.

  +1 on the warmup/recon lap. Most groups will run the first lap under a full-course yellow to enforce that. But you should be doing it yourself.

  Yes, yes, yes. There are very good reasons most racing sanctioning bodies have a "warm-up" session the morning of the race. Think of it as foreplay.

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