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poopshovel wrote:1.once you're hiring people to work the course, that is a huge potential can of worms. if one of those workers gets hurt, you tattoo "MS-13" on his head, tie a car battery to his neck, and throw him in the creek.fixed.
I joke, I keed.
you're a creative problem solver...i like it.
As a course designer, I would say the debate about a WOT finish is all about available space. In MidGa, when we were running at Watermelon in Cordele, the area was so tight that I had to put in a buzz kill, painful finish in order to use the limited space to it's best advantage.
OTOH, at South Ga Motorsports Park (Dixie region), the autocross area is so huge that there was plenty of room for a WOT finish, and it was wonderful!
Volunteer organizations have to do do the best they can with available resources. This counts doubly for autocross venues. It is what it is, and at the end of the day, it's all good. 
We nearly always have a really tight, twisty, slow finish at our local events. That's because most of our venues are small, and we need to keep exit speeds down for safety. I agree that at large sites a long straight finish area is better and safer, but where we run there usually isn't room to do that.
I've only been to one SCCV event, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I particularly like their simple class system. Every car is assigned a base class, based on its SCCA stock class, regardless of mods. Then, each modification you make is worth a certain number of points. Accumulate enough points, and you're bumped to the next higher class. So you don't have to feel compelled to invest in hugely expensive shocks and lose most of their benefit by running on stock springs to stay in stock class. You can do any mods you want, and they won't change your class as long as you don't accumulate enough points to do so.
In EVERY club I've run with, the single biggest issue is worker changeover. People simply don't get off their butts and get to work reliably. Many clubs try to do a rolling changeover for non-stop action, and that is the ultimate goal. The truth is there is still always a pause in between run groups for people who just don't show up, and/or the very last driver in the group to park, check in, and get to their assignment, even if they are hustling. I don't have a solution for that.
There are always a few who are out to WIN at any cost, rather than to have fun. Me, I'm just out to have fun and improve my skills. Yes, winning is also fun, and I have a number of trophies for improving my skills well enough to beat others. But I do it for fun, not for winning. I won ES locally last year. Now I'm running in a general street tire class, and placing midpack. I'd rather compare myself to the excellent drivers who are beating me and hopefully learn from them than hang out in the sparsely populated ES and take home another trophy. In fact, this year I've really enjoyed taking it upon myself to go out of my way to help novices as much as I can.
lateapexer wrote:Tuna55 get your family involved. I've now had the pleasure of being beaten by two generations. There is no better driver training than autocross.
Duke wrote:tuna55 wrote:I am not going to read it all, but I will say as a 'never done it' that I could never justify the time spent for the incredibly small amount of track time. Wife and kids rule all.
Get them involved. My newly-18-year-old daughter just ran her 3rd event with me on Saturday, in mid-90s heat (120+ on the pavement). She started at 17...
My oldest just turned two. He takes an afternoon nap and cannot reach the pedals. The youngest is at 7 months and still nursing.
The potential is there for junior dragsters or something, but that's around 6-7 years off.
Josh wrote:In reply to gamby:
Judging by your attitude in this post, maybe I'm glad you don't come out to our events, but you've got a lot wrong here. Maybe you haven't been to an NERSCCA event in a few years, but 7-8 runs is the norm at our events in good weather. We got 9+ fun runs up at NHMS earlier this year. And who cares how many novices there are? Are you forgetting that you were one, once?
I'm not exactly a fan of Boston BMWCCA's registration system, but if you get in, the events are fantastic. They tend to fill up in about 12 hours (not 1 minute), just set up a calendar alert or something. It's not impossible. The alternative would be having less than 8 runs, which would seemingly also piss you off. IMO the separate courses were lame, and in any case it's not feasible to do that in the space we have available now. Sunday was about an 80 second course with several spots where I was onthe rev limiter in 2nd in my E36. Nice job finding a way to complain about that :).
There are certainly no shortage of clubs to run with at Devens, all with their pluses and minuses. $125 for an untimed autocross is pretty ridiculous, though.
Well, this is going back 3 or 4 years, when the import thing was really peaking. I guess it slowed down a bit since then.
100 novices will slow the pace of a heat down to an agonizing crawl. That was my problem. The fields had gotten out of control.
The most runs I ever got at a Devens SCCA event was 5. Again, I guess things have slowed down since I was last there. It got to the point where it just wasn't worth it. The courses were great, the people were great, but runs vs. hours got to be too much for me.
I'm not lying/exaggerating about the BMWCC thing--that's why I let my membership w/ them lapse. When they combined the courses, that's when registration (specifically for non-BMW drivers) got WAY tighter. If I'm paying dues and can't drive, sorry--it's a legit complaint.
It was a great club to run with the first couple of years I did it--then I stopped being able to get in and I stopped. That was maybe 3 years ago (can't remember)
I dunno what to tell you--I experienced what I experienced.
Now I'm simply at the point where I don't have it in me to get up at 5AM and fry for 9 hours out on the tarmac. That's more my problem than anyone else's.
...and yes, the fun of 13-20 (on a good day) runs on a 1 mile+ course (where FTD is around 1:40) with no course-working is well-worth $125 to me. It's a mini track day.
I might add--I wasn't a REMOTELY competitive driver. I wasn't there to win a damn thing. I was content to rip around the course and see if I could even be comparable to fellow drivers. It wasn't a "hockey dad" kind of attitude.
I'm very slow to criticize event organizers, since they're doing exponentially more work than myself, but one of the local outfits always seems to spend a couple hours a day screwing with their computerized timing system. I'm sure that it makes tabulating results a hell of a lot easier, but the three times that I've run with them in the last couple of years, the events have gone off more slowly than when on the old manual system.
WilberM3 wrote:so you were at sunday 6/27's event? i had my lachssilber e30 m3 there, what rungroup were you in?
I was the Blue E36 328i in the second group (class C). I think I was parked pretty close to you.
gamby wrote:The most runs I ever got at a Devens SCCA event was 5. Again, I guess things have slowed down since I was last there. It got to the point where it just wasn't worth it. The courses were great, the people were great, but runs vs. hours got to be too much for me.
I'm not lying/exaggerating about the BMWCC thing--that's why I let my membership w/ them lapse. When they combined the courses, that's when registration (specifically for non-BMW drivers) got WAY tighter. If I'm paying dues and can't drive, sorry--it's a legit complaint.
It was a great club to run with the first couple of years I did it--then I stopped being able to get in and I stopped. That was maybe 3 years ago (can't remember)
I dunno what to tell you--I experienced what I experienced.
The least runs I've had at an NER event in the last 4 years is 5, and that was only because lightning ended the vent early. The other run group got 6 or 7. I don't think entries have slowed down that much, but the events are certainly run a lot more efficiently.
BMW runs their events very well also. The registration process is not ideal, but it seems like kind of a no win situation from your point of view. The events are very popular. Either they can turn people away, and you're not happy, or they let more drivers in, get less runs, and you're not happy. I also don't know what you mean by "especially for non-BMW drivers", the registration works the same regardless of what you're driving. 100 spots, members only, first come first serve.
gamby wrote:(I didn't read much of this thread)
SCCA auto-x around here (specifically MA at Devens) became pointless. 275 cars, 100+ novices, 8-9 hours for 4 runs. Nope.
BMWCCA was great when they were running BMW's and non-BMW's on 2 separate courses. 8-9 runs in a day was pretty good. Then they ran everyone on one course and you'd have to register within 1 minute of online registration's opening in order to get in. Nope.
There was/is a local club that does it very grassroots. For insurance purposes, they only time w/ stopwatches, because once there is timing equipment, it's a racing event rather than a "school". They run on a large course and have chase cars to pick up cones. No working the course. The upside is 13-15 runs in a day. The downside is the $125 cost--which is worth it IMHO.
I'll be a douche and keep the details to myself, just because I don't care to blow it up and have it ruined just yet.
Aren't stop watches timing equipment?
Apparently not. I guess the technicality is that if the stopwatches don't belong to the organizer, they can still call it a "school" rather than a "timed event".
Harder to explain away a bunch of timing equipment--although that loophole (that I pitched in for) was that if the timing equipment belongs to the drivers--rather than the organizer--and it just happens to be set up there, it would work. I haven't been this year, so I dunno if that's the case.
For those insurance trolls out there, the organization does way more schooling anyway.
Josh--after getting shut out of enough BMW events by 12:02AM, I was out. Lose-lose. I never even really bitched about any of this 'til now. I simply left and called it a day.
As for the nons--I seem to recall they had more slots for the BMW's than they did nons. So be it--it is the BMW club after all.
Maybe I'll get out to an SCCA event sometime if they're now that good. Honestly, I thought Devens was going to be condos by now--surprised they're still even holding events there.
gamby wrote: Josh--after getting shut out of enough BMW events by 12:02AM, I was out. Lose-lose. I never even really bitched about any of this 'til now. I simply left and called it a day
well it's never been quite that bad. there was just a post about this at boston-bmwcca and while it does open (annoying to some degree) at midnight, it was full in record time 9 hours later with 100 drivers. i set my phone alarm now and it works well for me. there's a ton of non-bmw cars there, i'd guess half or more so i dont think they have bmw allotments, at least not anymore. maybe they did in the past?
larry nicklas and christo tinkov took over the reigns a few years ago and its been really well organized as of late. i'd say come check one out again but that needs membership again too...
Honestly, I thought Devens was going to be condos by now--surprised they're still even holding events there.yea i heard that too, thankfully not yet... i heard that specific deal fell through. there's a LOT of clubs that run there pretty much every single available weekend day all year.
JoeyM wrote:It should not mater if you are a Nat. competitor or a play with your car person, the event done right is good for both. Over 25 years of experience with events and the organization of keeping the work load not on the same people and keeping event on time has worked well!I just wanted to say that I think there may be a schism is between A) people who are just trying to have a fun day playing with their cars and B) people who are treating this like a training ground for regional/national competition. Different goals mean that the people in group A and group B don't share the same ideas about how to run an event.
bigwrench wrote:JoeyM wrote:It should not mater if you are a Nat. competitor or a play with your car person, the event done right is good for both. Over 25 years of experience with events and the organization of keeping the work load not on the same people and keeping event on time has worked well!I just wanted to say that I think there may be a schism is between A) people who are just trying to have a fun day playing with their cars and B) people who are treating this like a training ground for regional/national competition. Different goals mean that the people in group A and group B don't share the same ideas about how to run an event.
and running an efficient event without burning people out is something that everyone wants...but that doesn't change the fact that the serious folks and the casual folks often have different priorities. doesn't mean they can't both be happy.
The diff between a regional and a national is pretty huge. After a couple of years taking 2nds and 3rds in our local events, I thought I'd try a National, since they were coming to GA. I ran pretty well, or so I thought. I diffled big time.
Most of it came from trying to run a Neon in Street Mod. But I did have a large time. At least on the first day.. the next day my trick knee had done it's trick, and I couldn't get to my worker station without crutches, so I withdrew.
I learned that day that even if you can't compete, you can have a good time.
We started a NASA Autocross group and running the TT class rules you had better match ups than with SCCA classes and less of them.
Ok, I'll throw my .02 in the ring...
In the Auto-x arena we've got the casual guy (like me) who wants to get out there, have some fun with his car, and learn how to be a better faster driver. Guys like me aren't concerned with PAX, or building a car to the limit of a class, they just want to get an adrenaline fix, meet some nice folks and have a good time. I'll pick out a few cars that are of a similar prep and performance level, and, for me, those guys are my target. For guys like me, it is hard to justify not going out on a Saturday night so I can be up at dawn on Sunday to spend 8 hours at an event. (with very little seat time) I do it occasionally, but I'd do it a hell of a lot more if it started at 11am and ended at 4pm or 5pm. There are a lot of guys like me out there, and if the events were a bit more time efficient it would bring a host of new enthusiasts into the fold.
On the other hand you have the hard-core auto-x competitors. These are the guys that live on PAX scores, build their cars to the letter of the law and see not a lot wrong with the current system. These are the guys who dream of winning a trophy at nationals. These guys aren't really bothered with spending all day on hot asphalt for 5 minutes of seat time, because there is nowhere they would rather be.
Both of these guys are enthusiasts, but with different priorities.
Maybe it is time to start a new type of "casual" auto-x events. Minimal classes, split run groups (one for early birds / one for night owls) and no trophies. (does anyone need another wooden plaque?)
Keep current auto-x events the way they are for the hard-core. It will keep the groups separate and everyone gets more seat time!
Now to just find someone to run the "casual" events......
In reply to Joe Gearin:
Joe, other than starting later, those places exist. You just have to find a club that doesn't use SCCA regs.
Joe Gearin wrote:Ok, I'll throw my .02 in the ring...
In the Auto-x arena we've got the casual guy (like me) who wants to get out there, have some fun with his car, and learn how to be a better faster driver. Guys like me aren't concerned with PAX, or building a car to the limit of a class, they just want to get an adrenaline fix, meet some nice folks and have a good time. I'll pick out a few cars that are of a similar prep and performance level, and, for me, those guys are my target. For guys like me, it is hard to justify not going out on a Saturday night so I can be up at dawn on Sunday to spend 8 hours at an event. (with very little seat time) I do it occasionally, but I'd do it a hell of a lot more if it started at 11am and ended at 4pm or 5pm. There are a lot of guys like me out there, and if the events were a bit more time efficient it would bring a host of new enthusiasts into the fold.
On the other hand you have the hard-core auto-x competitors. These are the guys that live on PAX scores, build their cars to the letter of the law and see not a lot wrong with the current system. These are the guys who dream of winning a trophy at nationals. These guys aren't really bothered with spending all day on hot asphalt for 5 minutes of seat time, because there is nowhere they would rather be.
Both of these guys are enthusiasts, but with different priorities.
Maybe it is time to start a new type of "casual" auto-x events. Minimal classes, split run groups (one for early birds / one for night owls) and no trophies. (does anyone need another wooden plaque?)
Keep current auto-x events the way they are for the hard-core. It will keep the groups separate and everyone gets more seat time!
Now to just find someone to run the "casual" events......
I think there have been a few good, constructive suggestions here, but the "Autocross ain't for everybody" statement also applies. It's becoming more and more clear to me that a lot of the perceived "problems" are just the nature of autocross events.
In the last three or four years, I've gone from wanting to be a nationally competitive auto-crosser, to wanting simply to participate in any and every bang-for-buck car related event I can.
So I guess I'm turning into that guy who autocrossing "ain't for." Will I still show up to an occassional event? SURE! But like you, I damned sure don't want to run in the morning. ATL region (as of a couple years ago, anyway,) ran night events, which might be a good solution for you/your region.
I understand the frustration, but there are SO many other competitive driving events that offer more 'bang for buck' (NOT slamming autocrossing, just addressing those like myself who enjoy a little more seat time per dollar.) I think the last private track day I did at Little Talladega was $75/person. Show up early, show up late, run all day, only run for a couple hours, whatever. It's your $75. You decide how many laps that's worth.
Hell, for a lot of people, I'm guessing joining an indoor karting league would be a great option. Stay cool, 'arrive and drive,' still get the adrenaline, still have the competition, still learn to be a better driver, but I'm guessing most events are in the evening, and don't take 8 hours.
Just thinkin' out loud here.
The previous posts are why I think the split day format is a good idea. I have a 2.5 yr old and one on the way. I hardly ever stay out late and would rather get up and autocross at 6am if I could be sure I was done around 11am (8-12 would be find, just sayin). It's just way too big of a commitment to give up a whole weekend day and miss that much time with my family. When I was single with no family, it was no big deal. It does change though! Just like Tim stated in his article, let the older guys do the morning sessions and the younger guys who sleep in do the later ones. Makes sense to me!
I have been autocrossing for 20 years and I have found I really prefer the smaller clubs with fewer cars. I started autocrossing in Wiregrass region (Lower Alabama) on a huge concrete heliport with 20 or so drivers. No workers, just go pick up any cones you hit when you are done (I'm sure it's different now). Show up at 11, get all the runs you want and leave by 3. When I moved to San Diego it was 200 cars per event, be there most of the day and get 4 runs. They also did all they could to discourage new people with your first autocross costing $70 or so (with all the required annual fees, etc). That's when I started doing track days. Now that I'm in Florida I've found the local Corvette Club and Corvair Club run great events that are laid back and give lots of seat time with caps on the number of cars. If you have several options, just look around for a club that fits your style!
I am an SCCA member and started this year with the goal of running every race of the season, which was admittedly a bit lofty. I've run once so far. I'm single, but still have a lot of social and professional commitments, as well as more often than not not really wanting to spend all day at an event. I also got into off roading a bit this year so my automotive interests were spread around a bit.
I have had more fun with marque club auto-x's and so on. Its sort of like the difference between a complicated sports league system or just a pick up game. I will never "rank", so I'm not really worried about staying within the SCCA, in fact I am usually near the slowest in my class. I do want to support it however, and as I move on in life I expect my racing interests will grow beyond autocross.
The one thing I find fascinating about it is out of my hobbies I try to share with my social circle, this is the one the fewest understand and the least number of people (like 0) want to even look at. The time factor is part of it, as well as the fact that it usually takes place on Sunday, which I actually appreciate. Just my 0.02.
