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failboat
failboat Dork
5/14/12 12:35 p.m.

Interesting. All the press photos were of an orange looking ST. The one I saw at the DC auto show looks yellow, near identical to the Blaze Yellow Tricoat on the standard Focus. They had a Titanium and an ST parked near eachother and I couldnt tell the color apart. They are calling the ST color Tangerine Scream, as if its not the same.

The0retical
The0retical Reader
5/14/12 12:38 p.m.

Let us know how it is if you get to push it around the track a bit. I've looked at them a couple times but I'm seriously afraid of abnormal brake wear and fade from the constant braking.

z31maniac
z31maniac UberDork
5/14/12 1:45 p.m.
Javelin wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
Javelin wrote: What are the advantages of the Focus ST over a Mazdaspeed3?

I'm guessing the REVO knuckle's up front that are supposed to dramatically help with torque steer? Certainly those are going on this like they do on Euro Focus.

No real LSD though, it uses the electronics to brake the inside wheel. Whereas the MS3 has an actual LSD and no electronic nannies.

Not completely true, even with TC turned off, they are still boost limited in 1-3 gears.

I was about to buy a Cobb, but ended up getting rid of '10 model.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy SuperDork
5/14/12 1:53 p.m.

Is the North American version still Volvo turbo powered, or has that powertrain gone with the wind to China?

alfadriver
alfadriver UberDork
5/14/12 1:59 p.m.
Streetwiseguy wrote: Is the North American version still Volvo turbo powered, or has that powertrain gone with the wind to China?

no.

Call it "Edge or Explorer" power. that's where the engine resides at the moment.

Javelin
Javelin UltimaDork
5/14/12 2:03 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac:

Limiting boost in a few gears is a whole different ballgame than using the brakes as a crutch for an LSD, both in execution and in potential aftermarket fixes.

alfadriver
alfadriver UberDork
5/14/12 2:09 p.m.
Javelin wrote: In reply to z31maniac: Limiting boost in a few gears is a whole different ballgame than using the brakes as a crutch for an LSD, both in execution and in potential aftermarket fixes.

LSD in a FWD car sucks. Take understeer, and make it worse.

That's why there's a lot of effort to get it out.

Heck, a bad LSD in a RWD car makes it understeer worse, too. Cars don't turn well when the two tires are turning the exact same speed. So you CAN make a car handle better if you do it right.

LSD is great if you are certain that you are unloading a tire so much that it's additional traction is not important.

Strizzo
Strizzo UberDork
5/14/12 2:16 p.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Javelin wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
Javelin wrote: What are the advantages of the Focus ST over a Mazdaspeed3?

I'm guessing the REVO knuckle's up front that are supposed to dramatically help with torque steer? Certainly those are going on this like they do on Euro Focus.

No real LSD though, it uses the electronics to brake the inside wheel. Whereas the MS3 has an actual LSD and no electronic nannies.

Not completely true, even with TC turned off, they are still boost limited in 1-3 gears.

I was about to buy a Cobb, but ended up getting rid of '10 model.

I'm not sure if they changed it for the 2nd gen, but on my 07, the only real limitation on boost in the lower gears was when the wheel was turned. it might seem like the boost level was limited in 1-2, but that IMO was due to the short gearing not allowing the turbo to spin up fast enough.

i remember the feeling of making a right turn and putting my foot down mid-turn expecting to be fighting understeer, and instead feeling the power feed in as i unwound the wheel. was pretty neat, that and the psychic VSC that would react to your inputs rather than the motion of the car. (lift throttle and increasing steering inputs would result in immediate correction from the VSC).

z31maniac
z31maniac UberDork
5/14/12 2:33 p.m.

My understanding on the 2nd gen cars was 12psi in 1-3, then the full 16-17 in the upper gears.

Which is fine, the stock Dunlops were terrible, more boost would have only made it worse.

jstein77
jstein77 Dork
5/14/12 2:57 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
Javelin wrote: In reply to z31maniac: Limiting boost in a few gears is a whole different ballgame than using the brakes as a crutch for an LSD, both in execution and in potential aftermarket fixes.

LSD in a FWD car sucks. Take understeer, and make it worse.

That's why there's a lot of effort to get it out.

Heck, a bad LSD in a RWD car makes it understeer worse, too. Cars don't turn well when the two tires are turning the exact same speed. So you CAN make a car handle better if you do it right.

LSD is great if you are certain that you are unloading a tire so much that it's additional traction is not important.

Couldn't disagree more. My Torsen-equipped Spec V was so tail-happy that I needed to put in a larger front anti-roll bar to make it more neutral.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy SuperDork
5/14/12 3:00 p.m.
The0retical wrote: but I'm seriously afraid of abnormal brake wear and fade from the constant braking.

My father's 2002 Camaro SS 6 speed does this with traction control left on. You don't even have to spin the wheels for it to apply the brakes, he went through a set of rear pads in 15,000kms. It also puts a ton of strain on the weak rear diff.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy SuperDork
5/14/12 3:02 p.m.
darkbuddha wrote: In reply to HiTempguy: My kids would barely fit in the Abarth now, and sure as hell won't in another year or two. I needed a real back seat. It's a compromise, but a worthwhile one.

Ah, I see. Being the single dude I am with (hopefully!) no kids in the immediate future, the Abarth calls to me. As a family dude though, the ST seems perfect.

And the ST is WAAAAY better looking than the Speed3 in any way!

alfadriver
alfadriver UberDork
5/14/12 3:04 p.m.

In reply to jstein77:

it does depend on how it's tuned. and how it's set up.

But if the car actually got a lot of torque to the inside wheel, it would start to understeer. And since you needed a larger front sway bar, then my point about traction limitation is true- you had a car that you had to increase the load on the inside tire to make work.

BTW, on your specV, did you try to tighten up the rear instead of loosening up the front? Keep the front traction, and increase the rear, instead of just decreasing the front.

Tyler H
Tyler H Dork
5/14/12 3:13 p.m.

A torsen-equipped SpecV still holds the record for the most torque-steeringest car I've ever driven. If you floored it in 2nd or 3rd gear, it would almost change lanes.

I think this Focus ST looks like a lot of car for about the same price as the FR-S/BRZ. It may not have as much finesse, but having the utility of a hatch and rear doors, along with 270 ft-lbs of torque may make the compromise easier to stomach.

darkbuddha
darkbuddha HalfDork
5/14/12 3:18 p.m.

Yeah, I was pretty bummed about the lack of REVO knuckle, but they're saying it wasn't needed. Personally, I'm in full acknowledgement that there are some compromises that have to be made despite the fact that we would like to a FWD to act more like a RWD car. And I accept those compromises, but I do so with appreciation for the efficiency and packaging benefits that come with FWD. To be honest, I'm more and more impressed at how manufacturers continue to find ways to improve and mask those annoying compromises.

Not having driven this car, I don't know how well it's going to work, but folks that have driven the car seem impressed and pleased, so I'm hopeful. I do fully expect that it will absolutely blow most of our grassroots enthusiast type 20+ year old RWD and AWD cars out of the water in most aspects, except maybe sheer power. Sad but true.

Javelin
Javelin UltimaDork
5/14/12 3:29 p.m.

In reply to darkbuddha:

I'll drink that Kool-Aid when it actually happens, but I still haven't met a McStrut FWD car with a crap at all in the handling department, MS3 included. One trip around the autocross will have you howling in rage.

iceracer
iceracer UltraDork
5/14/12 4:30 p.m.

I'm still waiting for the FIESTA ST.

The electric steering may have something to do with the REVO knuckle not being needed. It does other neet things.

darkbuddha
darkbuddha HalfDork
5/14/12 7:35 p.m.

Oh, that's right... I forgot about the special steering... variable ratio or something clever like that, and supposedly designed to help mitigate torque steer issues. The brakes are only used to control wheel spin, and I've read that all that stuff can be turned off in different stages. I fully expect the ST will put the MS3 to shame in the handling department. I personally found the one MS3 I've driven to be a bit inelegant when maneuvered around a tight coarse.

Javelin
Javelin UltimaDork
5/14/12 7:59 p.m.

In reply to darkbuddha:

Prepare to be disappointed then, they're still based on the same chassis architecture and both are still McPherson strut FWD cars. Without the AWD and/or REVO-knuckle, the ST just doesn't cut it.

tuna55
tuna55 UltraDork
5/14/12 9:57 p.m.
Javelin wrote: In reply to darkbuddha: Prepare to be disappointed then, they're still based on the same chassis architecture and both are still McPherson strut FWD cars. Without the AWD and/or REVO-knuckle, the ST just doesn't cut it.

Dude, come on - you've never even sat in one and you're already condemning it. Not to mention that the thread was set up because darkbuddha is excited about his new car. Easy, killer.

z31maniac
z31maniac UberDork
5/14/12 10:07 p.m.
darkbuddha wrote: I personally found the one MS3 I've driven to be a bit inelegant when maneuvered around a tight coarse.

I think that's why I liked mine so much.

Javelin
Javelin UltimaDork
5/14/12 10:07 p.m.

In reply to tuna55:

Sorry to rain on the parade, but it's another disappointment. I've been pining for a Focus RS since they first came out, followed Sainz in the WRC car, the works. But we never got the good Euro Focus, and just when we think we'll at least get the lesser model they berkeley it up, too. It's just an MS3 clone with a prettier face and an uglier butt.

To us diehards that still want these:

It's another slap in the face.

<<< Big time Ford fan, Ford in rally fan, and Focus fan

Still, you make a good point. I'll reserve judgement until darkbuddha gets his and lets me drive it!

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy Dork
5/14/12 11:00 p.m.

It seems like you can't get rid of the Touch system.

Call me old fashioned, I just want a knob and some buttons.

Still, awesome on getting to go to the event. Sometimes enthusiasm pays off!

T.J.
T.J. PowerDork
5/15/12 6:21 a.m.

I've seen some MINIs that can hustle their way around and auto-x course. FWD with struts.

I think this car looks interesting and it's pretty cool that darkbuddha gets to go to the event as a content whatever guy. Have a fun time and say hello to Tanner.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac MegaDork
5/15/12 6:27 a.m.
T.J. wrote: I've seen some MINIs that can hustle their way around and auto-x course. FWD with struts. I think this car looks interesting and it's pretty cool that darkbuddha gets to go to the event as a content whatever guy. Have a fun time and say hello to Tanner.

One of the fastest FSP cars in the nation as well is a FWD MacStrut car.

It's beyond asinine to say that no FWD cars handle unless they're Hondas. Clearly this car will suck on the daily commute while being pressed into daily driver duty because it doesn't have double wishbones or REVO knuckles. Come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

I think the ST is pretty awesome. Of course, my opinion doesn't mean anything because i haven't driven one.

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