In reply to adam525i :
Yup-agree it was the faster way out of the turn, but the the racing line includes the apex and Charles left it open.....and 759NRNG for serious, LOL!
In reply to adam525i :
Yup-agree it was the faster way out of the turn, but the the racing line includes the apex and Charles left it open.....and 759NRNG for serious, LOL!
NO... IN DEEP OUT CLEAN ...OH A TIRE RUB(HMMM)....BOO FREEKING HOO!!! AND THE BAD BRAT WINS!!!!YEAH!!!
2GRX7 said:In reply to adam525i :
Yup-agree it was the faster way out of the turn, but the the racing line includes the apex and Charles left it open.....and 759NRNG for serious, LOL!
I don't see what the apex has to do with the question -- AFAIK nobody's saying that Max was wrong to try the pass.
The bit that's questionable to me is that when Max is tracking out he hasn't yet passed LeClerc (they are still side-by-side) and yet he tracks all the way out, banging wheels and forcing LeClerc off the racing surface and onto the yellow curbs. How is that "racing room"? Is it not "avoidable contact"?
loosecannon said:Verstappen was very clever to wait until Leclerc crossed the DRS line before he (Verstappen) did, because it meant he had DRS on the next straight and robbed DRS from Leclerc
He used that trick a lot, actually. There were a lot of passes where the new car in front still had DRS in the second zone to help the pass stick.
2GRX7 said:Keith Tanner said:Javelin said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
I think it's clear that your fan biases cloud your vision or judgement.
Or I just don't understand, which is more likely. To you, Max was ahead. To me, I don't see that and I offered my reasoning.
And with ^THIS^ you've gained my full respect! To simply say that one doesn't understand instead of fighting tooth and nail over a subject that they're not sure of is commendable.
If you're in P1, your lead protects your priority to the racing line. If you've moved off/away from the racing line (thereby increasing your positioning away from that line) you risk being overtaken. LeClerc gambled on Verstappen late-braking and going off the track which would have allowed him to complete what's called the "over/under move. In F1, you're allowed one move prior to entering into the braking zone. LeClerc chose to "leave the door open". In the following pic, you can see LeClerc off of the racing line and Verstappen on the "overtake" line into the corner;
Verstappen did, in fact, late brake, but he stayed on the track
Now here's where the bone of contention could have come up. If Verstappen had jinked his steering wheel to the left into LeClerc, THAT could have lead to a penalty, but in-car video proved otherwise;
Even during the "tracking out" process, Verstappen stayed on the track. Textbook-and with it being Verstappen, that's a big FINALLY!
Do they allow this type of racing in the amateur leagues in the U.S.-depends on the sanctioning body/region, but in general, they want you coming back and constant corner crashing means more budget for repairs and a whole lot less money for entry fees. In Europe, this is commonplace.
I follow this. Where I get lost is the fact that Max never got ahead of Charles. He got alongside, but not ahead. Which I thought meant he had to leave room for the other car. In this case, it was low consequence. Had it been Singapore, he would have put Charles hard into a wall. Does the consequence make a difference? I suspect it does.
Keith Tanner said:spacecadet said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Honda also will build a setup to fit the Red bull because they are the #1 client/only client.
Red bull started playing second fiddle when the factory Renault team began competing again.
Didn't the #1 client concept handicap Honda when McLaren was pushing for the "size zero" concept? Honda definitely seemed to be on the resurgence last year with the Toro Rosso team.
Horner would be a hard guy to work for if you weren't on his good guy list. Mercedes and Ferrari seem to be able to put reasonable powerplants in their customer cars. That's an interesting take that Renault pushed RB down the priority list when they started racing their own team. Although what's the cause and what's the effect? Did they decide to go their own way to get the sort of attention that Ferrari and Mercedes get and Red Bull got the shaft? Or did Horner push them out? It would be interesting to take a good look at the performance with that in mind.
fair point. Honda certainly had a tough entry.. and there's something to being on the E36 M3 list for either team. Mclaren expected Honda to bend and be at their will and Red Bull had that previously with renault and then lost it and their frustrations showed of course.
I wouldn't say it was renault giving them the shaft as much as renault made a unit that worked for them.... and it didn't work in the red bull packaging and it created a negative atmosphere on both ends.
just my take on the situation.
codrus said:2GRX7 said:In reply to adam525i :
Yup-agree it was the faster way out of the turn, but the the racing line includes the apex and Charles left it open.....and 759NRNG for serious, LOL!
I don't see what the apex has to do with the question -- AFAIK nobody's saying that Max was wrong to try the pass.
The bit that's questionable to me is that when Max is tracking out he hasn't yet passed LeClerc (they are still side-by-side) and yet he tracks all the way out, banging wheels and forcing LeClerc off the racing surface and onto the yellow curbs. How is that "racing room"? Is it not "avoidable contact"?
Curious: are you (and K. Tanner) comparing this to what happened in Canada?
2GRX7 said:Curious: are you (and K. Tanner) comparing this to what happened in Canada?
I can't speak for Keith.
For myself, I don't see that the incident in Canada is relevant. Vettel was penalized for going off-track and rejoining unsafely (requiring Hamilton to take evasive action), which was not the case here. Max stayed on track the entire corner.
(I do suspect that the stewards may be reacting to the public response to the Canadian penalty when deciding not to award one here, but IMHO that shouldn't be a factor)
“Car 33 (Verstappen) sought to overtake car 16 (Leclerc) at Turn 3 on lap 69 by out-braking car 16,” read the stewards report.
“When doing so, car 33 was alongside car 16 on the entry of the corner and was in full control of the car while attempting the overtaking move on the inside of car 16.
“However, both car 33 and car 16 proceeded to negotiate the corner alongside each other but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so.
“Shortly after the late apex, while exiting the corner, there was contact between the two cars. In the totality of the circumstances, we did not consider that either driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident.
“We consider that this is a racing incident.”
Looks like the RBR is ahead of the Ferrari before the impact:
Yup, RBR in front, wheels tracking the line, Ferrari behind with wheels cocked to the RBR.
Here, watch LeClerc turn in harder "just like Vettel" for yourself:
OK. good and yes-Canada isn't relevant, Keith can speak for himself-just getting it all done in one post....
What I was saying earlier about conceding the corner on a pass comes into play as LeClerc did so by not defending. He opened the door for Verstappen to take the corner - and he did! That corner includes tracking out. That particular racecraft embodies the definition of conceding a corner (over/under) to reap the gains of overtaking down the straight-but it didn't work. It was now up to LeClerc to heed the laws of geometry (brake from going off) use the run-off , or crash into Verstappen.
I agree the stewards were reacting to Canada fallout, but they made the right call, regardless of how it could have look.
In reply to Javelin :
If it was as cut and dry as that statement makes it seem (thanks for posting it) they would have issued it before the drivers uncorked the Champagne but the reality was it took them hours. I don't think F1 wanted to face the backlash that would've come with a penalty to Max (or any other driver had they been in that same situation fighting for the lead in the last few laps) even if it was justified (even just a bit) so that leaves us to discuss it. Hopefully this leads to some more good action between Charles and Max and he gets to return the favor in the next few races.
I wonder what these last few races would've looked like if Charlie was still around.
Adam
And to be fair to Charles, if he defended that corner it just meant conceding that position down the next straight as the run onto it would be so compromised, what he did was his only chance of actually defending the position which he successfully did the previous lap.
Adam
I found the race to be exciting throughout.
Max is a rough driver and he got away with this one. I very much dislike his public personality and his race craft. His speed is real. As others mentioned he can't seem to make consistently clean passes. He bumped Leclerc off track. Still, I think that like Max and Ocon colliding in Brazil, Leclerc was in the right BUT should have yielded the corner enough to try and get drs for the next straight.
While a penalty would have been fair, it wasn't required to right a gross wronging of Leclerc. So in terms of the sport it would have seemed heavy handed.
I intend to watch this race again. But then I even liked watching the French GP twice.
McLaren I always rooted for you, glad to see you back!!!!
And finally,
HONDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
2GRX7 said:What I was saying earlier about conceding the corner on a pass comes into play as LeClerc did so by not defending.
This is the first time I've heard the idea that if you don't go to the inside to defend a corner then you've conceeded your right to have track on the outside.
Oh and I guess I am losing my willingness to accept Gasly's performance relative to Max but he fought for this chance at RB over Hartley. Hope he figures it out. As I have a feeling the rubles are stacking up on RB's marketing desk for a certain Russian to move back in to RB.
In reply to codrus :
What do you mean? That's the racing line. You're conceding the racing line!
I'm just happy we all have something to talk about because it means something actually happened. I think Max was very clever in how he pulled off that pass because he must have known that he would be at full lock and would force Leclerc over the sausage curbs. Well done Max. I think we forget how brutal Senna and Schumacher were with other drivers when battling on track.
That looked like racing to me, and good racing at that.
Theorizing on this incident if a wall was there just isn't applicable. Both drivers would have done things completely differently if there was a wall. Both drivers knew the stakes of that turn and placed their bets accordingly.
I haven't watched the race yet, but maybe won't bother. Max hits whomever he is passing more often than not- I would guess maybe 70% of the time he just bulls his way through and relies on the other drivers giving him more space than other drivers to try to preserve their cars.. It is just how he drives and I get it. There is big money at stake and he has the killer instinct that is needed to really win races at that level, but he drives like an shiny happy person and I wouldn't enjoy being on a track with him.
I don't think the Max/Charles incident is the same as the Seb/Lewis one the week before. In Canada, either Seb had the control to leave a car width between him and the wall and he chose not to; or he was out of control due to a mistake; or he simply took a shortcut. Call it dangerous re-entry, call it exceeding track limits, whatever. He screwed up, almost put another driver into the wall at high speed and he got the minimum penalty possible. It's not a popular decision but it's pretty easy to see why it was made.
The other drivers have definitely learned that Max is willing to hit other cars and the media have celebrated him for it. He'd be awesome in touring car, but as long as F1 cars are fragile little princesses with needlessly exposed wheels (seriously, it's a terrible design choice) this is a problem. The crowds love it because collisions always make the highlight reel and rubbin' is racin' to some people. I place the driver who can make a clean aggressive pass (hello Danny Ric) as superior to the driver who relies on contact (real or threatened) to make it happen. Watching Max and Charles grow as racers is going to be interesting, as they're both the same age but have very different teams behind them and very different mindsets. Which will be the first to a championship? My money's on LeClerc, although Max will possibly win more races during that time.
Theorizing what would have happened in a different corner is totally applicable. Would Max have driven differently? I don't think so. Would the penalty have been applied? That's the question.
T.J. and Keith: Great assessments! I'm not a fan of Verstappen-YET, because of the issues stated, but he has set himself up for aggressive passing, and that's what people want! This, to me, was the first time he attempted an aggressive pass without the ridiculous amount of lock-up/plowing action of yore.
But T.J.-you have me dying over here! Your, "he drives like an shiny happy person and I wouldn't enjoy being on a track with him" statement has me creating visuals of you in the lead car, looking in the mirror, saying to yourself, " Sigh, here comes Max! Let me mosey on over here so I have a car to race with next week!", "I wish I could spank him!" hahaha!
I do find it interesting how many out there equate hitting the other car as racing. I see it as both or one driver screwing up. Not an evil thing just a fact. I don't think Max is really a bad person as I don't know him. I do think he makes many mistakes which results in contact with other drivers. Minor contact is always fine. Leaving no room for someone when you have the corner is fine. Driving to bump someone off is not fine
There are other Motorsports where more significant contact fits in.
In F1 and WEC/IMSA and maybe high level GT series I think it is a sign of poor racing to simply shove a competitor. Enjoy the series where crashing is racing if that is your thing.
Regarding the Max hype. Every marketing and production company has the goal of turning everything into virtual reality TV. They need to produce a villan and produce a antihero and produce a virtuous hero. It is proven to get ratings and SEO/SMO. Providing hype and partial quotes is what we have to weed through to see the real racing. Which is why I try to always get the live coverage.
Gasly raced hard. Fun.
Kimi raced hard. Fun
Landon raced hard. Fun.
Sainz did a hell of a job. Fun.
Leclerc raced hard. Fun.
Max raced hard. Then ???mm. Oh well fun.
Watch that part. Not the hype.
In reply to 2GRX7 :
Well, if I were on the same track as him he definitely would be so much faster everywhere, he wouldn't have to hit me to get by as he lapped me every couple laps. Other drivers manage to pass other cars without pushing them off the track, that is all I am saying. I realize they are not just racing for enjoyment or a hobby, so it is bound to be a bit cutthroat, but it doesn't have to be unsportsmanlike.
maschinenbau said:Theorizing on this incident if a wall was there just isn't applicable. Both drivers would have done things completely differently if there was a wall. Both drivers knew the stakes of that turn and placed their bets accordingly.
In principle, the track limits are the track limits. The question of whether or not there's a wall on the other side of that white line isn't supposed to change the rules regarding that line.
You'll need to log in to post.
