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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Fourth Gen F-Bodies + Corners?

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April 2, 2009 3:13 p.m. Nitroracer Dork

I have been looking at picking up a 98-99 LS1 powered camaro or firebird as a new daily driver within the next month or so and I know they can go, but can they handle a corner?

I know it won't compare well with my previous miata DD but can a good set of shocks and springs really help the handling of one of these cars or are they just hopeless? Going fast is great and all but I want something more balanced than an old muscle car.

Also can the 6-speeds really get 25-26 mpg? All that power and economy boggles my mind.
April 2, 2009 3:25 p.m. wherethefmi HalfDork

I saw 30 with my lt1 z28 on the autotragic (highway). City not so great and yes they can be made to handle just it won't be like your miata. Plus they are really comfortable.
April 2, 2009 3:27 p.m. Keith UberDork

We took our LS1-powered Miata to Laguna Seca last week. It got 34 mpg at a 75-80 mph cruise. Believe it :)

As for corners - well, my 98 Z28 hates 'em. It's not the best example of the breed, purchased as a drivetrain donor. I suspect it badly needs some shocks. I hope it needs shocks But it's really only happy when it has the bit between its teeth and it's tearing chunks out of the pavement in a straight line.
April 2, 2009 3:38 p.m. PHeller HalfDork

Keith wrote:

We took our LS1-powered Miata to Laguna Seca last week. It got 34 mpg at a 75-80 mph cruise. Believe it :)

Incredible...

Someday.
April 2, 2009 3:47 p.m. DirtyBird222 Dork

Before I cammed my T/A I averaged like 29mpgs with an intake lid, bigger MAF, and headers!

Strano Springs, Strano front and rear sway bars, Koni SA 4th gen front shocks with 3rd gen rear shocks, and sub-frame connectors with the right alignment make the car handle pretty damn well. I have all that crap plus LG Motorsports Double Adjustable Panhard rod and Single Adjustable lower control arms. I have only been to a few autoxes in the past year but I can tell a significant difference, the car is much more smooth, level, etc. BUT STRANO SPRINGS with KONIs...def the way to goo. http://www.stranoparts.com/searchbymodel.php?CategoryID=0&ModelID=7

I know people love to hate on these cars, because they weigh 3400lbs, have a live axle, etc...but a majority of these people have never actually been in one. I actually got a 30 minute dissertation by this douchebag I work with on why F-bodies suck so bad in a strait line, autoxing, against motorcycles, etc. When I asked him if he had ever been in one, his answer was "No, but...."
April 2, 2009 4:01 p.m. Xceler8x Dork

I owned and LT1 powered 95 Z28. Fun car. That torque has to be felt to believed. Mileage was high 20's on the interstate. Around town it was low 20's and high teens. Better than the SUV's I've owned.
April 2, 2009 4:02 p.m. walterj Dork

Copy what the NASA American Iron guys do... some of those cars seem to handle pretty well from the instructor seat - I won't say they handle great - but they hustle OK for what they are.
April 2, 2009 4:33 p.m. P71 Dork

If you want to go around corners there's 2 options well worth looking for.

The first (and easiest) is the WS6 Firebird. The WS6 package got uprated springs, shocks, sway bars, and real Ram-Air induction for a nice power boost. The WS6 package was available on both Trans Ams and Firebird Formulas (which are basically V6 Firebirds but with the LS1, think lightweight stripper model). Formula WS6's can often be found in true hardtop form and are the lightest/stiffest of the breed.

The second (and holy grail) option is called 1LE. There's no way to identify a 1LE car visually except for the build sticker of options (usually hiding behind the hatch plastics). 1LE was available on all V8 Camaro and Firebird models (Z28, SS, Formula, Trans Am, and even the SLP-modified Firehawks). Depending on year they got goodies ranging all the way to huge baffled fuel tanks for endurance racing.

Another option is the Police-Spec B4C Camaros. These were used by the Highway Patrol in many states (some still have them) and although they don't feature much "special" they were all cloth seat/hardtop/zero option cars making them nice and light as well as stiff. Most were given rollbars and taken very good care of.

The 4th Gens in general are well-handling cars and flyweight compared to today's muscle cars. There is a huge aftermarket and a lot of suspension upgrades available. Huge wheels/tires bolt right in and you can have 305-1000+HP as you desire. My next car has a 90% chance of being a 4th-Gen F-Body...
April 2, 2009 6:26 p.m. Alonso New Reader

I dearly miss my '94 LT1 Trans Am. I never got a chance to drive it on a track, but the torque was unbelievable. I don't have much to offer to the thread, all I can say is that F-bodies are great looking cars and I love seeing them on track.
April 2, 2009 8:56 p.m. DirtyBird222 Dork

WS6/SS cars weren't all that much of an improvement. The price you pay for a used one now over a Z28 or WS9 Trans Am you can put better springs, shocks, and "ram air" into it.
April 2, 2009 9:41 p.m. mad_machine UltraDork

the only thing I have against the camaros that I like the mustang over them for.. the driving position. I hate that "I am laying down" feeling when driving them.

I also really disliked the weighty steering. it always felt artificial. My uncle had one of the last SSs... he lost his license in that car (something about a spike strip at 125+ after being pulled for a DUI) so I wound up driving it for a couple of months whenever he wanted to go somewhere in it.. such a hard life.
April 2, 2009 10:50 p.m. HiTempguy Reader

My father owned a 1994 LT1 6-speed car for a while (2 years), and just last weekend came back from Cali with a really rare 2002 LS1 6 speed black on black full load SLP convertible

I've been in my fair share of cars that handle. While they aren't the greatest stock, they sure are a blast (especially to daily drive if you can afford it). If you have good tires on it, it most definitly will be one of the faster cars on the on/off ramp! If you don't have good tires on it... well, it truly never gets old with massive tire-smoke billowing power slides. I'm suprised I didn't get a couple of tickets last week when I took the '94 out for a spin. All sanity leaves when you have close to 300hp and 300ftpnds under your right foot with no turbo lag
April 3, 2009 8:21 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

HiTempguy wrote:

All sanity leaves when you have close to 300hp and 300ftpnds under your right foot with no turbo lag

Ain't that the truth.

My only problem with the LT1 was the opticrap. I'm sure that's rectified now.

Some nights on the way home I would drive my Z28 more sideways down the road than forward. Rolling burn-outs in those cars is stupid easy.
April 3, 2009 8:30 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

Biggest problem with the B4C's are the fact that the majority of them came saddled with the 4L60E. Still a fun car though. I remember the new one I test drove jumping sideways with 4 people in it, biting then launching itself to about 80 before I let off.... I was used to my 89 9C1 which was a beast in it's own right, this thing caught me off guard.
April 3, 2009 8:50 a.m. MadScientistMatt HalfDork

I've seen a well driven early 4th gen Camaro beat up on S2000s at one of our local autocrosses. May have been a 1LE. Had a very good driver, but still, it's a car with surprising potential.
April 3, 2009 9:09 a.m. DirtyBird222 Dork

You think they actually did something different to the LS1s the put in the Camaro/Firebird than the one they put in the Corvette? GM rated them from 305hp to 325hp stock at the flywheel, guys took them strait to the dyno and put down 315-325 to the wheels.....Joe Corvette would have been pissed if the lesser vehicle would have had the "same" hp numbers as the Vette.

Seriously talk to Sam Strano, he's been crowned a national autox champion in a stock v6 f-body. He knows his chit about these cars. His springs are great with either shock setup he recommends.
April 3, 2009 9:22 a.m. dlmater New Reader

I bought a used '99 Z28 with the LS1 4 or 5 years ago. My goal at the time was to find the most HP at the cheapest price. I have never autoX it but I drive it most days to and from work. I have a 3000 rpm stall converter (with lock-up), long tube headers and full exhaust. It pulls like a freight train all the way to redline. You really need to drive one to appreciate this engine. Was never real crazy about the styling of the car though. It is just a really fun car to drive and can be found fairly cheap.

Reading on the LS1 forums over the years, it would seem the 4l60e is a weak spot for many. I blew mine on a 1-2 shift at 3/4 throttle with about 85,000 miles on the odometer. This was before the converter, on stock tires, and it has never been to the track. I since replaced it with a built 4l60e supposedly good for 500+HP if I remember correctly. That was not cheap! I added some nitrous (125HP shot) after that, but the lack of traction was ridiculous.

It is easy putting some wide rubber on these cars. I am currently running 275's in the front and 315's in the rear without any rubbing or modifications.
April 3, 2009 9:43 a.m. Bobzilla Reader

I gotta agree on the 4th gen styling. I never thought they were pretty. I preferred the last of the 3rd gen's for appearance, but one cannot deny the abilities these cars possess.
April 3, 2009 3:43 p.m. RexSeven HalfDork

DirtyBird222 wrote:

You think they actually did something different to the LS1s the put in the Camaro/Firebird than the one they put in the Corvette? GM rated them from 305hp to 325hp stock at the flywheel, guys took them strait to the dyno and put down 315-325 to the wheels.....Joe Corvette would have been pissed if the lesser vehicle would have had the "same" hp numbers as the Vette.

I think the only difference between the F-body LS1 and Corvette LS1 is the ECU tuning. I read that in an LS1-swap article a while back.
April 3, 2009 3:52 p.m. neon4891 SuperDork

RexSeven wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote:

You think they actually did something different to the LS1s the put in the Camaro/Firebird than the one they put in the Corvette? GM rated them from 305hp to 325hp stock at the flywheel, guys took them strait to the dyno and put down 315-325 to the wheels.....Joe Corvette would have been pissed if the lesser vehicle would have had the "same" hp numbers as the Vette.

I think the only difference between the F-body LS1 and Corvette LS1 is the ECU tuning. I read that in an LS1-swap article a while back.

+1, the 'Vette tuning required premium, the F tuning only needed 87
April 3, 2009 4:40 p.m. Spinout007 New Reader

I don't know about the 4th gen cars but my 3rd gen got 28-29 mpg on a regular basis on the interstate with a 700r4, and that was with a TON of work done to the engine, 305 that would regularly spank the guys at my high school with bone stock 4th gens. With subframe connectors and better shocks/springs it held corners fairly well, at the time I thought it was great, but I replaced that car with a 94 Rx-7, for some reason after the 7, the camaro didn't seem like it handled all that hot anymore. now around town it got in the neighborhood of 18-20 mpg as long as u kept ur foot out of it. Put boot to floor and it could drop down to 9mpg quickly. As for interstate cruiser and sweeper duty the car absolutly rocked, around town and on big pot holes the live axle tended to rear it's head, but I'll never forget barely rolling on the throttle at 45mpg on fresh BFG comp TA's in a storm and having the rear try and walk sideways on me, or not wearing my seatbelt, after converting to four wheel discs and track compound pads, and bouncing myself off the steeringwheel/dash first time I had to panic brake with that setup. Yup miss that car, should never have sold it, but hopefully will be replacing it with a 6sp 4th gen soon enough, I keep telling my wife I want another one.
April 3, 2009 6:37 p.m. DirtyBird222 Dork

neon4891 wrote:

RexSeven wrote:

DirtyBird222 wrote:

You think they actually did something different to the LS1s the put in the Camaro/Firebird than the one they put in the Corvette? GM rated them from 305hp to 325hp stock at the flywheel, guys took them strait to the dyno and put down 315-325 to the wheels.....Joe Corvette would have been pissed if the lesser vehicle would have had the "same" hp numbers as the Vette.

I think the only difference between the F-body LS1 and Corvette LS1 is the ECU tuning. I read that in an LS1-swap article a while back.

+1, the 'Vette tuning required premium, the F tuning only needed 87

Nope, read your owners manual. 91 for F-bodies with LSjuans. 87 for Vsux. The tune was minor, like I said you could have taken an F-body and Vette off the show room floor and their RWHP numbers would have been pretty damn close.
April 3, 2009 9:27 p.m. P71 Dork

Only real differences of the early GenII LS1's (5.7L) was the LS6. First year Z06's got them at 385HP, all that followed were 405HP. Different heads, cam, and intake basically. To muddy up the waters late LS1's in the F-bodies got LS6 intakes. Otherwise all 5.7L LS1's will be 340-350HP at the flywheel no matter the factory rating.

The Ram-Air WS6's make a few more at speed. The SS Camaro design didn't work nearly as well.

Follow this "generalized" chart:

LS1 (5.7L) - 350HP (305-350 factory ratings but all made 340-350)

LS6 (5.7L) - 405HP (385 in first year)

LS2 (6.0L) - 400HP

LS7 (7.0L) - 505HP

LS3 (6.2L) - 430HP (436 with optional exhaust)

LS4 (5.3L FWD) - 303HP (Tune-limited)

LS9 (6.2L) - 638HP (Supercharged)
April 4, 2009 12:11 a.m. DirtyBird222 Dork

01-02 f-bodies got the full ls6 block and intake, ls1 heads and cam. They labeled certain SS cars with a factory performance kit of having "345 hp" as if they did something special for these cars lol.

As for the SS/WS6 "ram air" most of the air to the air box comes from the lower valence anyways not through the hood. They got a different setup than the base model cars which allowed more airflow. You can be uber grassroots and get some dryer ducting and you can make your own setup for a lot cheaper and just as effective if not better.

You can also be grassroots by buying a piece of fernco pipe from home depot and cutting it and fitting it between the MAF and Throttle body. Smooth and only costs $5, great improvement over the factory "ruffles have ridges" tube.
April 4, 2009 2:38 p.m. HiTempguy Reader

305 that would regularly spank the guys at my high school with bone stock 4th gens.

"Back in the day, I had to walk to school 20kms, uphill, BOTH WAYS, in 2 feet of snow"

Anywho... (this is me saying you are full of crap, a buit 305, ESPECIALLY with a 700R4 behind it, would take so much effort to make faster then a 4th gen its not even funny).

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