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Dec. 25, 2011 10:55 a.m. paul Reader

I autocross a '05 SI, it's been a big adjustment from my 1996 ESP cobra, especially since the SI's current setup is slightly biased towards oversteer when over the limits, despite not having a lsd

Some points may translate to track driving, but here are some tips I use: -Go into slaloms a bit slow, use light throttle while in slaloms to keep the back end from stepping out, - partial throttle around tight corners leads to slight oversteer, really helps the car to rotate, - as with most fwd's, if the back fully slides out, correct a bit & go heavy with the throttle.

The biggest difference b/t the two cars is I could go into corners carrying much more speed with the cobra because it had a bit more push and therefore more benign at the limits, if understeer was encountered it could be negated with some throttle; going in too hot w/ the si requires corrections, countersteer etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MdOnvKNOU4
Dec. 26, 2011 6:48 p.m. steverife New Reader

For those that make the stab the gas comments, it really doesn't seem to work for me. I can't recall finding myself in a situation where I'm getting in over my head and I'm not already heavy on the throttle.

friedgreencorrado wrote:

steverife wrote:

Granted the CRX is a good platform and I just autocross, but everything I've done is to make the car more stable and then I drive it as smooth as possible and get on the gas as early as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_RNwXzydSQ&list=UUQo6QdfnaqWwLqzTrieDGvA&i...

Never say "just autocross". I actually find it more difficult than circuit racing. First, the course is different every weekend (I must be the worst course reader in the world, I can walk one five times and still not quite get it), and you've got to be on the top of your game immediately.

If a road race is a wrestling match, an autocross is a knife fight.

You look pretty smooth in the vid! Nice work with the hands, too. Lots of people forget to shuffle, and just go hand over hand. How was the run?

I guess "soley" autocross would be more accurate. Thanks. That was a really good run by my standards.
Dec. 26, 2011 6:54 p.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

That looked like a very clean run to me, Very good control of your car
Dec. 27, 2011 12:30 a.m. friedgreencorrado SuperDork

steverife wrote:

For those that make the stab the gas comments, it really doesn't seem to work for me. I can't recall finding myself in a situation where I'm getting in over my head and I'm not already heavy on the throttle.

Dude, no insult intended..but the situation and the throttle position may be related.

Without being there to see it in person (and of course, my own complete batch of FAIL at an autoX), don't consider my observation as anything other than opinion.

OTOH, it sounds like you're "overdriving" the car when you say that you're already mashing the loud pedal too hard when the thing is off the line. Sometimes, you have to slow down going in to get the exit you need coming out.

steverife wrote: I guess "soley" autocross would be more accurate. Thanks. That was a really good run by my standards.

What did the timing beams say that weekend?... Gotta stay honest to get better, dude. The "stopwatch" never lies..that's how I know I suck at autocross!
Dec. 27, 2011 8:20 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

Good control.

Regarding "stab the gas"...

It's pretty hard to tell from a video, but it sounds like you are decelerating INTO the turns, then accelerating IN the turn (after you find your line). That might not be accelerating early enough. Try positioning yourself a little wider, then accelerate (and turn) INTO the corner. It's gonna feel like you are turning too early. Then stab the gas. Know where your line is before you hit it instead of searching for it while in the turn.

Also, tighten up the BACK end. When running through a slalom, etc. you should be trying to put your back inside corner ON the cone (almost). This will straighten your front end and add speed. It looks like you are pointing the front end, instead of positioning the back end.

Keep in mind, I'm a much better armchair coach than I am driver.
Dec. 27, 2011 8:33 a.m. iceracer SuperDork

Sort of a counter to the "mash the throttle thing". If you are accelerating out of a corner and the front end start to wash out or you are running out of room, a SLIGHT lift on the throttle will help the front to tuck in. Repeat, do not completley back off the throttle, that could be counter productive.
Dec. 27, 2011 8:59 a.m. steverife New Reader

friedgreencorrado wrote:

steverife wrote:

For those that make the stab the gas comments, it really doesn't seem to work for me. I can't recall finding myself in a situation where I'm getting in over my head and I'm not already heavy on the throttle.

Dude, no insult intended..but the situation and the throttle position may be related.

Without being there to see it in person (and of course, my own complete batch of FAIL at an autoX), don't consider my observation as anything other than opinion.

OTOH, it sounds like you're "overdriving" the car when you say that you're already mashing the loud pedal too hard when the thing is off the line. Sometimes, you have to slow down going in to get the exit you need coming out.

steverife wrote: I guess "soley" autocross would be more accurate. Thanks. That was a really good run by my standards.

What did the timing beams say that weekend?... Gotta stay honest to get better, dude. The "stopwatch" never lies..that's how I know I suck at autocross!

As far as results...

http://www.trscca.org/results/2011/081411_pax.htm

Most of the guys near the top had really high expectations for nationals, so it was a good day.

Whenever I used to hop in a FWD, people would tell me to stomp the gas if I got in trouble. I never really found it usefully. I tell people that hop in my car to plan ahead, stay committed, and don't snap off the throttle if you have to lift.
Dec. 27, 2011 5:12 p.m. friedgreencorrado SuperDork

steverife wrote:

As far as results...

http://www.trscca.org/results/2011/081411_pax.htm

Most of the guys near the top had really high expectations for nationals, so it was a good day.

Whenever I used to hop in a FWD, people would tell me to stomp the gas if I got in trouble. I never really found it usefully. I tell people that hop in my car to plan ahead, stay committed, and don't snap off the throttle if you have to lift.

Sweeeeeeet. Don't take advice from me (for autocross, anyway), you're already better than I am at it.

EDIT: iceracer's got a good point. "Stomp" might be too aggressive a word (or control input).
Dec. 28, 2011 8:07 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

Re: Stomp the gas -

Occasionally, that was a correct descriptor. A good execution of it would be a 3 cone slalom where I charge past the first cone, do an abrupt lift on turn-in to the second cone, get it dancing a lot, and then nail the throttle to save it / scoot past the third cone. Not a lot of opportunities for this, but it was effective.

More typically, especially in the snot rocket, it was feathering the throttle to balance weight transfer and the overall balance.

Finally, I would remind myself, in stuff that would have a tendency to upset the car, that "The car cannot spin if the gas is floored." 25% of the time, it resulted in a spectacular off course or cone assault, but 75% of the time, it resulted in me coming off course shaking going "Holy E36 M3 - I didn't know the car would do THAT!"
Dec. 28, 2011 9:15 a.m. iceracer SuperDork

A lot of that depends on where the wheels are pointed when you get on the gas.
Dec. 28, 2011 10:56 a.m. EdenPrime Reader

This is why people say to stomp the gas. This was simply amazing and he saved it by instantly burying the gas-- disaster averted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU
Dec. 28, 2011 11:39 a.m. kazoospec Reader

I've got one of each, a Nissan SE-R and a Mazda Miata. I've autocrossed both. Here's my impressions: Getting my SE-R to handle at least reasonably well really wasn't all that difficult. A massive Nismo rear bar and presto, instant available oversteer. Learning to manage that oversteer, however, is a whole different ballgame. As most above have mentioned or at least implied, it seems like a FWD is fastest when you intentionally induce oversteer (with a left foot brake/trail brake, mid corner throttle life or setting your car up so that the inside rear lifts, whichever works best for your particular application). Then, as soon as oversteer begins (wait too long and it will swap ends on you) get back in the throttle and let the power application work against the sliding rear end. The end results are early power and quick rotation. Initially, the power application when the rear is sliding seems (and probably is) contrary to sensible driving habits, but it works. The down side I see is that it always seemed harder to me to run the course as a smooth, connected series of corners. Its seemed like the corners were almost always a choppy series of semi-frantic gas/braking inputs.

Now, for the RWD. Still learning this one, but I'm finding it much easier to put together a smooth "complete course" run. Still learning how to rotate the car with the throttle and trust the stability that comes from a better front/rear weight distribution. It seems to me that the RWD is capable of much higher sustained corner speeds. The combination of a smoother (i.e. faster) overall course presentation and better cornering speed/stability are the strengths of the RWD platform, at least from my experience.

All that said, my SE-R is, at least right now, much faster than the Miata, but that probably has more to do with the 70 hp advantage.
Dec. 29, 2011 6:43 a.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork

Kazoospec,

In my opinion, it sounds like you're letting the Nissan slide too much before you correct. It could be a setup problem, but for most corners it seems to me like you should me aiming for a gentle 4 wheel drift rather than big angles and frantic gas mashing.

Really pay attention to what the rear is doing and feather the gas to maintain a mild angle. There is such a thing as too much rotation in an FWD. At least in my experience, FWD cars corner fastest when they naturally tend toward oversteer but the driver works to keep the drift angles down.

I'll give you an example. Last time I was on track with the Daewoo (long story ...) I never once got the car out of shape. Not once did the car drift enough for a spectator to see it, but when I got out and checked the tires, you'd have been amazed at how even the tire wear was front to rear. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like a very good sign to me.
Dec. 29, 2011 7:21 a.m. kazoospec Reader

Daewoo, I think this might be reflective of the difference between autocross and road course racing. Although it can be course dependent, I've found that generally with a FWD, getting through the corners quickly is more important than carrying speed because there usually aren't any "straights" of any significance that follow the corners. The distances covered corner to corner are so small. To me, minimizing distance through the corners seems to have a bigger payoff in autocross than ultimate speed. (Obviously doing both is fastest, but everything is a compromise) Also, autocross "corners" would be considered impossibly sharp/tight on a road course and there's usually little, if any, banking to them. This requires a much tighter line and faster rotation of the rear end of the car than you would want/need on a road course. Don't want to pull the OP's thread too far off topic. Maybe we need a new thread on whether different driving styles are required for autocross and road racing.
Dec. 29, 2011 8:24 a.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork

I think you are probably right. That said, I have not shared your experience of FWD in my very limited time autocrossing either.

I think there are a lot of factors at play. FWD driving technique is a pretty broad topic, sort of like trying to use the same methods for a 911 and a Lincoln Towncar just because they are both rwd.
Dec. 29, 2011 9:36 a.m. vw_jason79 New Reader

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

I think there are a lot of factors at play. FWD driving technique is a pretty broad topic, sort of like trying to use the same methods for a 911 and a Lincoln Towncar just because they are both rwd.

Agreed, there are many variables at play from a setup and horsepower/torque stand point to just say that standing on the loud pedal will fix a situation or be a proper solution to being faster. I had an instructor at my first track weekend tell me if I feel the car coming loose to stab the gas and I guess if you are already getting out of shape, not on the throttle, and can think quick enough, its worth a try.

I have not done any autocrossing and jumped right into HPDEs but I don't thing there is a whole lot of difference in your technique at 35mph and 60-70mph. I typically brake into the turn-in, off the gas briefly, start modulating the throttle(to the point of starting to push, while maintaining the line), then at the point(obviously depending on the type of radius of turn) of a proper track-out get back on the gas hard. I have a VW Corrado, although heavier that a Scirocco, the car loves to rotate. No front sway, o-bar in the ream beam, unknown spring-rates(I know, stupid), 123whp/142ftlbs, roughly 2550lbs with me in the car.

I really got used to the squeal of street tires to tell me where the feel of the car was starting to push. Once I moved into DOT R comps I no longer need that squeal because I had built up that feeling of the car about to push even though the lateral Gs were greater. Still same technique with the R comps just more speed and grip.

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