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  • alfadriver

    Sept. 29, 2011 11:43 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    In reply to pres589:

    Interesting that the observations are that it runs a lean cruise mode. Technically, that's a defeat device. Well, unless it runs lean cruise on the required emissions tests (and with front and rear O2 sensors, it's not a trivial standard that it's required to meet). The older carb models were probably tuned for lean cruise, and were fully compliant, and ok. But with that kind of set up, eh- I suspect that while it may be tuned for lean cruise, it may not be exactly legal, that being for Honda, I mean.

    With that kind of VTEC set up, and I WOULD call it VTEC- off is just a different version of on, that basically turns up the swirl a lot, in theory making it more lean tolerant. In theory.

    All in all, it seems as if you are on a good path for a solution. The one think I would tell you- with a NB O2 sensor, you can't really run closed loop lean. So IF it's running lean intentionaly via Honda, putting in the WB set up, and moving the stoich point richer may not really do anything since it's likely to ignore the NB sensor anyway.

    So, now we have tangented off of the OP in a long way. Well, except that it's the obvious solution to a 13 sec quarter mile and 30mpg out of the box....

  • PHeller

    Sept. 29, 2011 12:36 p.m. PHeller Dork

    Honda engine in a Miata?

  • alfadriver

    Sept. 29, 2011 12:49 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    In reply to PHeller:

    'Busa engine has already been done. A Honda would be seen as a copy cat.

  • Otto Maddox

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:03 p.m. Otto Maddox Dork

    I don't think anyone has thought of a unmodified car that can meet the requirements. Seems like there should be one.

  • alfadriver

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:09 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    In reply to Otto Maddox:

    Driven gently, this may come close, if it comes. http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-shows/frankfurt/2012-ford-focus-st

  • Otto Maddox

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:12 p.m. Otto Maddox Dork

    How about a chipped Sonata Turbo gently driven? That is the best I can think of. Stock they are 22/34 MPG and 14s in the quarter.

  • Javelin

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:37 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    Otto Maddox wrote:

    I don't think anyone has thought of a unmodified car that can meet the requirements. Seems like there should be one.

    Besides the bizarre 25MPG city, the GTO and C5/C6 Corvette both fit the bill in the real world.

  • bravenrace

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:45 p.m. bravenrace SuperDork

    In reply to Javelin:

    What GTO or Vette were rated for over 30 mpg? The highest I've ever seen was I think 28 mpg.

  • Josh

    Sept. 29, 2011 1:53 p.m. Josh Dork

    Otto, if you're going by the government mileage numbers, it's basically nonsense. A lot of the newer tech cars seem to be "teaching to the test" so to speak, and since the EPA has also re-factored all the old data, numbers for older cars are even less useful. If you compare real world mileage from fuelly.com to the rated mileage at fueleconomy.gov, my 2002 s2000 is rated at 18 city, 24 hwy, 20 combined. However, the real world average at fuelly is 24.7, which is consistent with my experiences (the only tanks I have achieved less than 24 mpg included an autocross or two with lots of VTEC).

    On the other hand, the 2011 Hyundai Elantra is rated at 29 city, 40 hwy, 33 combined. Fuelly users are reporting an average of 31.0. Something is seriously wrong with the government numbers if a hard core sports car, designed to be driven hard (even compared to other sports cars) is returning better than the highway rating in all around use, and a economy car designed for boring efficiency is returning overall mileage barely better than the city rating.

  • Otto Maddox

    Sept. 29, 2011 2:00 p.m. Otto Maddox Dork

    In reply to Josh:

    When car shopping, I usually look to see what Consumer Reports gets in their test cars. Before you jump down my throat and call it a stupid toaster rating magazine (well, you probably wouldn't, but some would), CR got 25 MPG in mixed driving in an S2000. Not bad.

    FYI - they got 21 in a Corvette.

  • Josh

    Sept. 29, 2011 2:19 p.m. Josh Dork

    CR also got 29 overall in the 2011 Elantra. I don't put any value in the EPA numbers anymore. ECUs are getting more sophisticated all the time, and as a manufacturer if you can figure out how to game the test with software, why wouldn't you?

  • alfadriver

    Sept. 29, 2011 2:23 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

    Josh wrote:

    CR also got 29 overall in the 2011 Elantra. I don't put any value in the EPA numbers anymore. ECUs are getting more sophisticated all the time, and as a manufacturer if you can figure out how to game the test with software, why wouldn't you?

    Because it's against the law.

  • Javelin

    Sept. 29, 2011 3:11 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

    bravenrace wrote:

    In reply to Javelin:

    What GTO or Vette were rated for over 30 mpg? The highest I've ever seen was I think 28 mpg.

    I said real world. Many, many, many owners are able to get 30+ MPG highway. I have done so personally with two different GTO's (an 04 LS1 and an 05 LS2).

  • fast_eddie_72

    Sept. 29, 2011 6:53 p.m. fast_eddie_72 Dork

    pres589 wrote:

    '73 Capri and a TDi swap. '73 Capri and MS3/5 speed swap. '73 Capri and 5.3/6 speed swap.

    Really the answer is '73 Capri, the proof behind this is unmistakable.

    I'll go with that.

    Actually, a '72 is a little lighter, but I'm picking nits.

  • pres589

    Sept. 29, 2011 10:15 p.m. pres589 Dork

    In reply to fast_eddie_72:

    Yeah but I actually own a '73 so I have to go that way. And we both know a '69 is the lightest.

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