OK I have the basic idea, A few questions please.. I've got tons of junk (Jaguar) that to most people has no value other than scrap weight.. Is that the value it will be assessed at? I also have Fiberglas molds for a variety of cars. The most interesting are either XK-E Or "D" type Jaguar.. Some of those molds go back 40+ years.. Would those molds be assigned a value based on what I spent on them back in the day minus depreciation or not counted at all? Same with Fiberglass. While the resin would need to be new, The Fiberglas or carbon fibre could come off my old inventory.. It would be extremely easy for me to make a V12 powered, Tube framed fiberglas bodied XK-E or "D" type and spend well under the $2012 budget.. I plan on hauling stuff to the local scrap yard soon so maybe I should just haul a little less?
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Dec. 13, 2011 12:15 a.m. mguar New Reader
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Dec. 13, 2011 12:32 a.m. Luke SuperDork
Someone'll chime in with a proper answer soon.
However, what I've gathered from these threads in the past, is that everybody just basically wants to see cool E36 M3 at the Challenge, especially if it involves the kind of scratch-built DIY ingenuity you're talking about. So if you have the means, I'm sure nobody's going to discourage a tube-framed, fiberglass-bodied D-type.
Also, whatever happens, don't go scrapping awesome Jaguar body molds
.
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Dec. 13, 2011 5:31 a.m. JoeyM SuperDork
There is a "specials" class for locosts, zambonis, and tube frame cars. In the past, specials didn't compete against the other classes for trophies. You may want to let Per know what you are building to see if that rule gets changed.
[Full disclosure: my datsun replica will be a "specials" car]
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Dec. 13, 2011 6:08 a.m. SVreX SuperDork
FMV is essentially something you determine. Be honest. If it really has no value, scrap is a reasonable approach. Recent sold prices on E-Bay, or any other approach you can document is also acceptable. The point is to document it, not just claim it has no value.
The molds have NO value, unless you plan on leaving them on the car when it is running at the Challenge.
Only parts actually on the car count.
If you buy 50 gal of resin but only use 1 gal, then the price is $X/50.
I would disagree about the glass and mat. It has the same value whether it is new or old.
Tube frames are not allowed, but can run in a separate exhibition class.
The point is to represent what someone else could actually build the car for. You can't use parts at a discounted rate because you had a unique opportunity no one else could have had (like your friend is willing to give you parts just because it is you, or the parts happen to be laying around your shop).
Hope that helps.
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Dec. 13, 2011 8:33 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork
With SVreX providing answers like that, I can go back to lurking. He nailed it.
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Dec. 13, 2011 8:45 a.m. dyintorace SuperDork
All that said, given your answers regarding Jags in the V12 Challenge thread, for the love of Pete, please do build a Jag Challenge car!! You obviously know your way around them and the results should be full of awesome!
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Dec. 13, 2011 8:58 a.m. carguy123 SuperDork
And where are you? If you don't want the molds I do.
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Dec. 13, 2011 9:25 a.m. mguar New Reader
SVreX wrote:
FMV is essentially something you determine. Be honest. If it really has no value, scrap is a reasonable approach. Recent sold prices on E-Bay, or any other approach you can document is also acceptable. The point is to document it, not just claim it has no value.
The molds have NO value, unless you plan on leaving them on the car when it is running at the Challenge.
Only parts actually on the car count.
If you buy 50 gal of resin but only use 1 gal, then the price is $X/50.
I would disagree about the glass and mat. It has the same value whether it is new or old.
Tube frames are not allowed, but can run in a separate exhibition class.
The point is to represent what someone else could actually build the car for. You can't use parts at a discounted rate because you had a unique opportunity no one else could have had (like your friend is willing to give you parts just because it is you, or the parts happen to be laying around your shop).
Hope that helps.
Thank you, that is extremely complete.. OK tube frame cars run in their own class. Can we elaborate a bit on that? I don't want to pick nits here, I believe in the spirit and not just the letter of the rules when talking about amateur competition. So if this is against the rules/ spirit then so be it.. However I see an opportunity to have some fun and the rule as you explained it seems big enough to drive a truck through it.. What if I rebodied a XJ12 sedan? I could take the front and rear suspension and weld them to the floorpan of a sedan. (shortened a bit)
Narrowed a bitand then remove all the rusty bits and replace them with Fiberglass or carbon fibre.
Naturally I'd need a safe rollcage. For autocrossing I'd be better off with a "D" type since it only has a 50 inch wide track and a 88 wheelbase.
Last I checked a XJ-12 sedan is worth about $300 across the scrap metal scale.. If you separate the pieces into copper wire/radiator,aluminum, etc.. that can get up to around $1000.. more if you pull the insulation off the wires. remove all bolts/studs etc. from aluminum etc. To double check and ensure that I understand not only the rule but the spirit of the rules, If the XJ12 sedan I use is worth $300 (rusty, rotted, faded etc.). and the remains I haul across the scale are worth say $150. I then have a starting base of $150? Again I don't want to violate either the letter or the real intention of the rules. So since I have several parts cars and pieces if I use the best engine from X, the rear end from Y, this and that from various piles of parts. Am I playing the game fair or being a cheatin' jerk?
ps; Fiberglass matt,cloth/carbon fibre remnants have no real value. At least they didn't have when they were saved.. I suppose now with the internet and Craigslist that's changed? What's a fair price to put on them? -
Dec. 13, 2011 9:37 a.m. mguar New Reader
In reply to mguar:
OOPs I need to clarify. If I use X engine and Y parts I'm of course talking about off the same basic car. Not some racing transmission I happen to have on the shelf. or triple disk pressure plate from my years of racing with a few more laps left in it.. What is the market value of a T5 nothing special transmission? I got it in trade for some old calipers I had laying around. If it's too high I'll go ahead and use the turbo 400 transmission that's already bolted to the engine.. but somehow a V12 "D" type with an auto gives me a sour taste in the stomach..
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Dec. 13, 2011 9:45 a.m. mguar New Reader
carguy123 wrote:
I'm a damn Yankee from the North (Minnesota) (yep that state that's up on top of you TexansAnd where are you? If you don't want the molds I do.
)
Not going to throw away the molds but Might be persuaded to run an extra set of parts off for you.. Are you interested in building a "D" type V12 autocrosser?
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:12 a.m. itsarebuild HalfDork
the only thing i would ad to the original SVreX comments (based on your follow up question) is that the original rules required that the body panels and floor pans etc were required to stay in place except as required to fit swapped motors, trannies, suspension bits or to repair rust holes and damage. i think your assessment of the $300 to $150 cost as "scrap" by weight would be reasonably accurate.
if you swap all of the body panels for fiberglass i'd think that was legal as long as they reasonably resemble the originals. and as long as they are accounted for in the budget. as far as a FMV goes for the mat, i don't think it would be fair to say that they are free since your affiliation with a particular race team provided you with access to the material that others would not have. so in fairness i think it should be accounted for some how. maybe you could find someone selling surplus on ebay or craigslist and use the sf cost of that advertised, sold at auction material as a sf cost basis for yours?
i would do the same for a traded for transmission that you have in storage....
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:13 a.m. dyintorace SuperDork
Could you build something that looked like one of these? Pretty please??
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:15 a.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork
itsarebuild wrote:
if you swap all of the body panels for fiberglass i'd think that was legal as long as they reasonably resemble the originals. and as long as they are accounted for in the budget.
I don't think they would have to resemble the originals too much. Look at the Nelson's yellow bug.
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:15 a.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork
Oh please build a Broadspeed Jag replica!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:25 a.m. itsarebuild HalfDork
93EXCivic wrote:
itsarebuild wrote:
if you swap all of the body panels for fiberglass i'd think that was legal as long as they reasonably resemble the originals. and as long as they are accounted for in the budget.
I don't think they would have to resemble the originals too much. Look at the Nelson's yellow bug.
what? you dont consider that to be reasonable?
this is GRM!
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Dec. 13, 2011 10:33 a.m. spitfirebill SuperDork
For FMV could you not consider the $100 the junk man would give you if he came to your property and picked up the car to be FMV?
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Dec. 13, 2011 11:07 a.m. Ian F SuperDork
+1 on D-type mold interest...
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Dec. 13, 2011 12:52 p.m. itsarebuild HalfDork
spitfirebill wrote:
For FMV could you not consider the $100 the junk man would give you if he came to your property and picked up the car to be FMV?
i would think it would be more than $100. $300 to $400 is the advertised rate here, and they will even push back on smaller cars (read not an SUV) with missing parts......but assuming he has some justification for it... maybe pictures of posted signs for $100 pick up or something in his area, that would probably work.
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Dec. 13, 2011 8:46 p.m. SVreX SuperDork
In reply to mguar:
Your questions are more detailed than most answers. It's obvious you get this game. Now stop talking about it and get to work!
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Dec. 13, 2011 9:00 p.m. SVreX SuperDork
93EXCivic wrote:
itsarebuild wrote:
if you swap all of the body panels for fiberglass i'd think that was legal as long as they reasonably resemble the originals. and as long as they are accounted for in the budget.
I don't think they would have to resemble the originals too much. Look at the Nelson's yellow bug.
I don't have the rules handy, so I'm doing this from memory. My details are off a bit.
IIRC, the yellow bug prompted a rules change. At the time it appeared, the rule said the body parts had to be present. They were. The rear fenders were moved inboard and built around while the front fenders were used to patch rusted floors, etc.
After that, the rule was modified to essentially say that that the body parts (or reasonable facsimiles) needed to be on the car in their original location. An exception was made for post war cars (blah blah blah)... bolted fenders (blah blah)- (it closed the door for for fenders to be removed from cars that the fender was integral to the shape of the car, but kept open wheels possible for Bugs and a few others).
I understand this to mean that something resembling a fender should be where the fender belongs, but is no prohibition to flares, fiberglass, or other modifications.
Go for it!
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Dec. 13, 2011 9:08 p.m. mndsm SuperDork
mguar wrote:
carguy123 wrote:
I'm a damn Yankee from the North (Minnesota) (yep that state that's up on top of you TexansAnd where are you? If you don't want the molds I do.
)
Not going to throw away the molds but Might be persuaded to run an extra set of parts off for you.. Are you interested in building a "D" type V12 autocrosser?
If you DO ever get rid of those, I know I would, or several other of my car friends, would be happy to take those off your hands. And I happen to be from MN.
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Dec. 13, 2011 11:15 p.m. mguar New Reader
SVreX wrote:
oK it sounds like I would be across the line.. There is no way to call a XJ12 sedan fender , hood etc.. a "D" type That big head rest would prevent the back end from being mistaken for a Sedan trunk lid as well. Jaguar did make 54 "D" types and 16 XK-SS not to mention the many, many, "D" type replicas.. Since they were actually built on a production line could a "D" type somehow be called a "PRODUCTION" CAR?93EXCivic wrote:
itsarebuild wrote:
if you swap all of the body panels for fiberglass i'd think that was legal as long as they reasonably resemble the originals. and as long as they are accounted for in the budget.
I don't think they would have to resemble the originals too much. Look at the Nelson's yellow bug.
I don't have the rules handy, so I'm doing this from memory. My details are off a bit.
IIRC, the yellow bug prompted a rules change. At the time it appeared, the rule said the body parts had to be present. They were. The rear fenders were moved inboard and built around while the front fenders were used to patch rusted floors, etc.
After that, the rule was modified to essentially say that that the body parts (or reasonable facsimiles) needed to be on the car in their original location. An exception was made for post war cars (blah blah blah)... bolted fenders (blah blah)- (it closed the door for for fenders to be removed from cars that the fender was integral to the shape of the car, but kept open wheels possible for Bugs and a few others).
I understand this to mean that something resembling a fender should be where the fender belongs, but is no prohibition to flares, fiberglass, or other modifications.
Go for it!
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Dec. 13, 2011 11:23 p.m. mguar New Reader
dyintorace wrote:
It would be no problem to build one like the Group 44 car In fact I built one for chump car racing and then they went and changed the rules. Now they require the original hood and trunk not a carbon fibre copy of it.. Putting nearly 300 pounds back on an already heavy car promised to take the fun out of it.. Then when I calculated the costs of running the event and the fact that refueling would occur 3 times as often as the typical winners refueled. I lost interest.. It's still on the back burner to finish someday if only as a track day car..Could you build something that looked like one of these? Pretty please??
