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admc58
admc58 Reader
1/22/12 7:40 a.m.

There is a ton of great information in this. the guy is building an exact as possible copy of a race car built originally by a an engineer in the 1950s. The original build was heavily documented by car mags of the era and there are even plans out there somewhere that he is trying to find. apparently the guy lives somewhere near me also. The original car was a flat head ford, tube frame with weight around 1600lbs. It also was one of the last "home built specials" to win overall at major races on the west coast. The original builder "Charles "Chuck" Manning" passed away in the late 1950's but was a real forward thinker for his day.

Enjoy the read...

http://manningspecialreplica.blogspot.com/

petegossett
petegossett SuperDork
1/22/12 8:58 a.m.

Wow, very cool. It makes you wonder if his car or any of the replicas are out there still?

patgizz
patgizz SuperDork
1/22/12 8:59 a.m.

looks way cooler than a locost. imho of course.

Donebrokeit
Donebrokeit Reader
1/22/12 9:43 a.m.

Looks like a good read.

Paul B

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath Dork
1/22/12 10:04 a.m.

Just read Mr. Manning's article. Evidently an electric fan strong enough to keep a flathead cool would "cost a small fortune and weigh 250 pounds." He also dismisses disc brakes as having no possible application to road racing. Also, iron pistons? What the hell? Makes me wonder what sorts of engineering problems people in the 50s were having with aluminum and disk brakes, which seem to me simpler than drum brakes.

My how technology has moved on.

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed Dork
1/22/12 12:09 p.m.

Good stuff.

Woody
Woody SuperDork
1/22/12 4:02 p.m.

I enjoyed that and I can't wait for his next update.

44Dwarf
44Dwarf Dork
1/22/12 4:53 p.m.

Iron pistons were the way to go before high silica Alum alloys were made. Iron is one of the few metals that will run against it self and not suffer from seizure. Also don't forget 50's carburetors were only good at providing an imprecise mixture at any time...and distributors were not that accurate too. so alum pistons failed quite fast.

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe HalfDork
1/22/12 5:40 p.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote: Just read Mr. Manning's article. Evidently an electric fan strong enough to keep a flathead cool would "cost a small fortune and weigh 250 pounds."

Now that I agree with, even today its hard to cool a warmed over flathead with that little opening.

Woody
Woody SuperDork
1/22/12 5:46 p.m.

Is it true that the dual water pumps contributed to the overheating issue by moving the water through the radiator too fast to cool it sufficiently?

JThw8
JThw8 SuperDork
1/22/12 6:44 p.m.

Is it just me or did anyone else freak out when he filled the cylinder with brake cleaner and lit it on fire to free up the piston?

For those not aware brake cleaner is highly toxic when burned

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe HalfDork
1/22/12 8:50 p.m.
Woody wrote: Is it true that the dual water pumps contributed to the overheating issue by moving the water through the radiator too fast to cool it sufficiently?

It is true kind of, two solutions, bigger pulleys or reducers inside the radiator hoses.

The reason that I say kind of is that there are a ton of flatheads that are built just wrong or sitting in something with a 32 radiator which are just way way to small. So they have a reputation for running hot.

A standard or close flathead with a properly sized radiator actually has trouble getting up to temp in most cases.

joeldriskill
joeldriskill None
1/23/12 7:40 p.m.

Thanks for the kind words guys. I am still early in the build and research. I have tons more that I have to share and more information just keeps cumming in. I have conducted at least 10 interviews that gave a lot of light on the whole story.

petegossett - There are some examples that are sill out there. There is the Schaghticoke Manning Special, It is built of the remains of the orginal car. Most mistake this for the real one. There is the beautiful Sorrell-Manning that Mr. Brinker owns. There is also the Bangert-Manning that is out there(they are calling it a Bangert but they don't know who made the body). There is a mystery car out that is on a Manning frame. All of these can be found on forgottenfiberglass.com or a simple google search. And there is a time period exact copy that I will share on my blog later, its got a good story. I am on the hunt for the real one. I think it no longer exists but I have a lead that I am following that will end all debates.

DaewooOfDeath- Remember that metal alloys were not what they are now. Early attempts at disc brakes were terrible. People that race Crosley Hot Shots today are still trying to make their disc brakes work in racing.

Woody- I can't say for sure but I do know that hot rodders used to drill holes in the water pump blades so that it didn't pump as much water. I think it was more for reducing the amount of horse power loss and less about heating issues. Remember most hot rodders were only going a quarter mile at a time or very fast on the flats. Note that Flatheads do have two water pumps.

Again, thanks for the kind words. I didn't expect any one to like it much less care. I was doing this blog mostly to squash any concerns about confusion of the authenticity of the frame. There is no documentation of who built frames. One could be found out there but I just didn't want it to be confused for a "real" one, what ever that means. admc58- I actually have the plans but they are only a copy. I am looking for the transmission plans that he sold even though I know what he did and can recreate it.

noddaz
noddaz Reader
1/23/12 8:14 p.m.

"spare tire serves as roll over bar"

You going for 100% accuracy on this?

And all those mitered corner joints on the frame...

Building cars has come a long way....

joeldriskill
joeldriskill New Reader
1/23/12 8:29 p.m.

In reply to noddaz: Yeah, I thought that was funny as well. I mean, no matter what, this car is dangerous. If you looked at the frame the wrong way it would dent. He wrecked this car at one of the early pebble beach races by running off track and hitting a tree. How he lived, I don't know. I am trying to go 100% but I don't now if I have the testicular fortitude to race it in vintage events. I am going to tool around (which can be more dangerous than racing) and do autocross events in it at first to get a feel for the car. You bet, progress is good. I just think this old car junk is too cool.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath Dork
1/24/12 12:37 a.m.

Joel,

Are you going to leave the steering exactly the same? I was thinking that if you put a joint and bend in the steering shaft close to the box you could get a lot less worry about being speared through the chest without anybody noticing.

That said, this guy seems like he was super innovative and the car looks like it will be a ton of fun to drive when finished.

joeldriskill
joeldriskill New Reader
1/24/12 8:12 a.m.

In reply to DaewooOfDeath: I thought about that some. I think I am going to do it the way he did, I know, crazy right?. My way of thinking is there are a million ways I could die in this thing. For starters the wall thickness on the frame is 0.049in thick, that's like 12 pieces of printer paper thick. So if I get t-boned there is basically nothing there and I am dead. There isn't a real roll bar even though it would be super hard to flip. He had a problem with the cycle fenders coming off and then the car would slide on them , so if I go with the cycle fender body I see that as a problem as well. The half round windshields that are just ground down glass for the rear of a 38 Ford look like they could behead me as well. And much like my Corvair it only has a lap belt. I understand that people would understand if I made it a little more safe but I just think I am going to nerd out on this thing and be as accurate as possible. I am making at least two frames though and the other will eliminate all this worry.

I sure hope this will be fun to drive. If it sucks that will be a lot of wasted effort. One of the owners loves driving his. He says it slides around a lot due to those skinny tires and the weird weight distribution. Gives him that Juan Manuel Fangio feeling. Right now I can only dream of those days.

Joel

foxtrapper
foxtrapper SuperDork
1/24/12 8:21 a.m.
Woody wrote: Is it true that the dual water pumps contributed to the overheating issue by moving the water through the radiator too fast to cool it sufficiently?

No, that part is an old wives tail. You cannot fail to transfer heat by moving the water too fast. You can cavitate certain locations though.

Did the dual waterpump flatheads have issues? Sure, and overheating was one of them. Between pumps that simply weren't very good to belts that don't make much contact, to belts that were run loose often to dual thermostats that could cause one side to run cold and the other to never see flow.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
1/24/12 8:27 a.m.
joeldriskill wrote: Again, thanks for the kind words. I didn't expect any one to like it much less care.

If anyone would care, they are on this forum. We love all things weird (says the guy with a Yugo).

Awesome project.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath Dork
1/24/12 9:53 a.m.
93EXCivic wrote:
joeldriskill wrote: Again, thanks for the kind words. I didn't expect any one to like it much less care.

If anyone would care, they are on this forum. We love all things weird (says the guy with a Yugo).

Awesome project.

The guy racing a Daewoo Nubira seconds this.

BTW, Joel, if you're going to build two frames then I totally understand your thought process. Cool build and good luck.

admc58
admc58 Reader
1/24/12 3:31 p.m.

joeldriskill, I am local to you and would love to see the progress in person from time to time. It is pretty easy to find me on the TAC forum or PM me from here.

Alan

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
1/24/12 3:39 p.m.
admc58 wrote: joeldriskill, I am local to you and would love to see the progress in person from time to time. It is pretty easy to find me on the TAC forum or PM me from here. Alan

+1

I am local too apparently.

Woody
Woody SuperDork
1/24/12 4:41 p.m.

Quote:

Sunday, January 22, 2012

11th Post- Parts list

Hello all, Something happened today that made my blog blow up today! Over the handful of months I have only had a handful of people even view my blog. Until recently only 2 or 3 people were "following" the site. Someone posted on Grassrootsmotorsports.com about my site and it was on. Thank you whoever did that! Not that I was doing this for notoriety but, it is nice to know that people actually are interested in this.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
1/24/12 4:46 p.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote: He also dismisses disc brakes as having no possible application to road racing.

I read in some book on Enzo Ferrari that he also refused to acknowledge disk brakes for a while. I don't recall the reason - only that it made no sense to my understanding of them. It is altogether possible that disk brakes of the 1950s were crappy and unreliable compared to drums.

Woody
Woody SuperDork
1/24/12 4:59 p.m.

I think Enzo was only concerned about moving forward, not stopping. Rather stubborn and short sighted...

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