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Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Help how to authinticate a rare vehicle 1 2

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  Jan. 9, 2012 1:40 a.m. Trans_Maro Dork

  speedbiu wrote:

  The shifter hole for the Muncie is not centered in the floor

  That's normal.

  The shifter hole won't be centered because the shifter doesn't go into the top of the trans like it does on modern units.

  The shifter mounts to the driver's side of the tailhousing on Saginaw, Borg-Warner and Muncie 3 and 4-speed transmissions.

  I don't know what GM would have supplied for a shifter on that car, or if it has been changed over the years.

  I'd bet that it would be an Inland Tool and Machine (ITM) or Hurst shifter.

  If it's a Hurst, it should be a Competition Plus. If it's a stock, GM supplied Competition Plus, there will not be any stop bolts in the shifter body to prevent overshifting. If it's an aftermarket unit, it will have stop bolts.

  Also, the stock GM Hurst units will have a round shaft with a flat spot in it with the Hurst name cast in. If it's an aftermarket unit, it will have a flat shifter shaft.

  If it's an ITM, it will have a plain round shaft and ITM will be stamped in the shifter body side plate.

  Shawn

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  Jan. 9, 2012 7:03 a.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork

  The Firenza is the suspension 'donor' for the Jensen Healey, except for the engine mount brackets and RHD rack the front crossmember looks exactly like the ones in my J-H's.

  There is a very active Firenza population down in Australia and New Zealand. You might see if someone down under has a link to more info.

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  Jan. 9, 2012 7:42 a.m. mguar Reader

  In reply to speedbiu: It doesn't matter; While the car may be unique and rare it's value is limited to those who will appreciate what it is.. The reason collector cars have value is because someone wants it enough to pay that amount..

  Certain Ferrari's/Aston Martin, Jaguars cobra's etc.. are worth what they are because of the publicity and following built up over decades..

  There is a process whereby certain cars can be documented. I believe it's done with the FIA but sad to say clones have slipped past even them..

  IN general what you need to do is put together a provenance of the car.. get as much documentation pictures etc.. as you can. Then track race entries, programs and whatever other literature exists to support your version of it's history..

  Long stories even when authenticated tend to diminish the value/marketability of a car. You can trace a particular car back to production but if there is a period where it disappeared from public view that decreases the market value of the car..

  As for putting any 302/M21 back into the car if the serial numbers don't match original production numbers the value is again diminished.. That seems painfully counter intuitive when dealing with race cars who may only use a motor for development and the actual race motor is another.
  

  Having said all that the "rules" aren't hard and fast.. For example the process to get a Former Trans-Am car documented to be able to run with the few select groups who actually care about such things isn't as strict..

  The few events where such documentation is required here in the US do not need or care about FIA certification.. However if you ever intend to run the major European events such as Goodwood, LeMans, Monaco etc.. You'd better not only have the complete documentation but apply at least 2 years prior to entry deadline..

  Your word or documentation isn't likely to be sufficient.. In general you will have to pay some very respected person to verify it's authentication.. It won't be cheap..

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  Jan. 9, 2012 7:54 a.m. Woody SuperDork

  mguar wrote:

  Long stories even when authenticated tend to diminish the value/marketability of a car. You can trace a particular car back to production but if there is a period where it disappeared from public view that decreases the market value of the car..

  This is true.

  I have a cousin who has a real Lotus 7 (pre Caterham). I've always wanted one and he has some interest in one of my Porsches. But...

  ...his car has one of those long stories attached to it. It's fully documented and authentic, but it's the kind of situation that you run into with old race cars. I know it's the real deal but it's something that would come up if you ever decided to sell it. You don't need any impediments to what should be a smooth transaction. And I'm a believer in full disclosure when I sell something.

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  Jan. 9, 2012 9:16 a.m. 2002maniac HalfDork

  2012 challenge car?

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  Jan. 9, 2012 11:11 a.m. mguar Reader

  speedbiu wrote:

  In reply to mguar:

  Im aware of long storys but when a car gets to be 40 years old and traveled thru several countrys and owners it happens.I just want to make sure that the car is what it suppose to be.Theres no plans of selling at the moment.I have contacted several people in South Africa and are waiting on replies.If its the true 1 or 2 road cars built then it would be crazy to race it.my plans are to try and get concrete documentation on the car from the time it was built.The problem is at the moment when the car left SA there were bad blood between the two partys so information is not forth coming.Mguar you seem very knowledgable and I would be glad to send you all the info. I have on it at the moment and I will try and explain the history of it.I do know the car was re bodied during the its life and the restoration was never completed.Thares where I have to stop because I don't want to do any work to the car until I can document the work that was done prior to me finishing the restoration.I also have started to get information on the races it won,which was quit a few.

  Re bodied?!!!! Oops value plummets.. Now the car is worth what it's components are worth.. If I get it right the engine, transmission, brakes, will all be different and now the body is different? That's sounding more and more like George Washington's ax.. all original except the handle was replaced a few times and the head a couple of times.. Don't feel bad, I have just such a car myself.. While it's a real "D" type Jaguar from the 1950's with a complete provenance it doesn't have the correct serial number engine, transmission, or differential. In addition there have been body repairs, replacements etc.. as well as other changes and updates.. That's what 60 years of racing gets. Because It's well documented I can race with the elite here in America but I doubt I'd ever get to run the big races of Europe.
  If it was virgin original it would be worth millions.. as it sits less than even a 1/4 of that.. Just for information if you do great work yourself without any outside help on the restoration what it winds up selling for is likely what you'll have spent doing the restoration.. Now there are exceptions.. however the auctions are filled with cars that fail to recover the cost of the restoration..

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  Jan. 9, 2012 12:52 p.m. dlmater Reader

  Good luck in your search. Regardless of the history or pedigree, it is a really cool car. Please keep updating the thread with your progress.

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  Jan. 9, 2012 1:14 p.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork

  Occasionally there are race cars that despite all the changes are still extremely valuable, mostly due to the people who drove them. The 'Sprinzel Sebring Sprite' is one of those. http://sebringsprite.com/pmo200.html It was flattened in a barn collapse and was restored. Some accounts say there really wasn't much useable recovered except the VIN and commission number plates.

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  Jan. 9, 2012 4:49 p.m. mguar Reader

  speedbiu wrote:

  Well I know the floor and the suspension is correct.The flares are the original ones as with most of the inside.I understand the the engine part but what if the engine blew up and it was replaced with an original DZ302 and M21? I'm not trying to pass this thing off as all original,but the chassis ,roll bars,roof,trunk,hood, and floor are original just the fenders and Qtrs were replaced.I can restore it fairly cheap,but the original brakes were F1 and they are no where to be found and if they were they would be $$$$$.As for end price these things are Gold in South Africa so that would be the market.As for the 2012 Challenge,Yep when I first saw the car thats where my mind was,but after researching the car I don't see it happening.Maybe the UTCC one day no time soon.As for now its going to remain in the barn till I can get the history sorted out.

  You do have a neat car.. don't sit on it. Restore it and race it.. Documentation is one of those things that can drive people crazy and prevent them from having real fun which has to be the whole reason race cars exist.. If you race the car it will increase the interest in it and perhaps increase it's value.. Oh as someone else said; Offset shifter hole would be correct for a Muncie transmission..

  With regard original brakes.. depending on who's brakes are used something similar is likely available if not brakes for cars like that are readily available and not terribly expensive.. ..

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  Feb. 19, 2012 6:13 a.m. wheelnut

  Hi all, came across your interesting forum whilst Googling about this car which has some controversy surrounding it. From what we understand the original was strippped on arrival in UK around 1990. From what I saw just prior it to leaving ZA its unlikely the same shell.

  The rear suspension is completely something else. One wonders why such a sorted and perfect condition aspect of such a car would be altered as such? Interior also different.

  Few years ago somebody brought one of the three track cars back from the dead. It turned out to be a big scam in the process people have become more aware.

  Good luck with your research. Just be cautious though there is much confusing information going round in South Africa. These cars raced 40 years ago. For those that know all three track originals seem to be acounted for. But who knows really?

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  Feb. 23, 2012 12:15 a.m. wheelnut New Reader

  Thanks Speedbiu, if its the original car then somebody went out of their way to destroy a fully sorted and restored original car overnight. You know the seller was not paid for the original car which was stripped on arrival in the UK? If that's original then there may be issues. Just be cautious as far as informatiion out of Africa, it should be properly checked.

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  Feb. 23, 2012 3:38 a.m. DICKMAWSON None

  In reply to speedbiu:

  the flares are not original and the interior certainly is not I dont know where the suspension or brake set op came from. Ed Hubbard was my partner in Rhodesia and was arrested and deported for fraud. The car has not been paid for and subsequently is in the process of litigation it is stolen property

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  Feb. 23, 2012 7:02 a.m. Kram New Reader

  speedbiu, I have Basil van Rooyen's email if you need it.

  Basil met up with the owner of a Firenza V8 in the UK just last year.

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  Feb. 23, 2012 7:44 a.m. speedbiu Reader

  In reply to Kram:

  We are in contact with Geoff Mortimer,Basil Van Rooyen, and Anton Rollino about the restoration of the car.Due to the availability of parts here in the Stated its better the restoration takes place here.Were going to have Mortimer and Van Rooyen over see the the project to assure its correct.Thanks for your interest if you shoot me your email I'll gladly keep you up to date with the restoration.

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  Feb. 23, 2012 9:43 a.m. DICKMAWSON New Reader

  In reply to speedbiu: Yes its me send me your email and a name you seem to know me and you also know the Can Am is stolen property Basil had dinner with myself and Mick when he was here in the UK

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  Feb. 23, 2012 1:58 p.m. Cotton Dork

  wow this thread took a turn. keep us posted speedbiu!

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  Feb. 23, 2012 6:55 p.m. mad_machine SuperDork

  so.. stolen by SA law.. but legally owned here in US.. this is interesting

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  Feb. 23, 2012 11:42 p.m. DICKMAWSON New Reader

  In reply to speedbiu:If You Cant get your facts right it is better to stay silent the written word once documented cannot be retracted I dont even claim it to be my car knowing ED well that vin plate could have come from anywhere that I will claim as mine and the engine an box which is here D

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  Feb. 24, 2012 10:15 a.m. wheelnut New Reader

  Mawson didn't buy anything from Hubbard.Floor not correct. Where and when was this raced to look like this? Refering the the structural changes not the storage dirt.

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  Feb. 24, 2012 1:04 p.m. David S. Wallens Editorial Director

  Someone came to me and asked me to intervene. Since things have gotten a bit touchy, perhaps it's best to take this one to e-mail instead of continuing on a public forum.

  Thank you.

  PS: After some follow-up with the involved parties, we have locked this thread. No, no one is in trouble.

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