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March 19, 2010 3:43 p.m. jrg77 New Reader

Ok, so I've heard off and on about high maintenance vehicles, but I don't have a frame of reference for this. I've heard that VW makes a sweet car when it's not broken, ditto for its big brother Audi. I've heard that a Porsche is nirvana and with skill and patience can be DIY, but the parts are hugely expensive. I've heard that an BMW expensive to maintain while being basically a good sportish car. I've heard that a Mercedes Benz requires regular checkups and that electronic gizmos go out of whack often.

So when one of these emotional appliances gets into my price range it give me pause to think I may have to pay that much again to keep it running.

Does this go further than something like a 60k mile timing belt and water pump swap on a Honda, or knowing that around 75k miles is a good time to change all of the belts, hoses, fluids, alternator and water pump on a GM product?

Help me understand, cause I would love to get a 3-series or this Boxster I saw for $16k.
March 19, 2010 3:52 p.m. ddavidv UltraDork

The Boxster is a PITA to work on thanks to the engine placement. I know BMWs can be pricey to fix if it's above the 3 series, but most 3 series parts I've seen have been very affordable. VW/Audi parts are expensive, not tremendously well made (or they wouldn't fail with such frequency) and the cars have become a nightmare to work on, especially if you don't have access to the golden VAG scan tool. Since leaving VW/Audi products a few years ago, I'm very happy to be in the BMW camp now.
March 19, 2010 3:53 p.m. NYG95GA UltraDork

Take note:

All the cars you mentioned in your first paragraph are German cars.

There's your sign, right there.
March 19, 2010 4:04 p.m. BoxheadTim HalfDork

Old 911s are comparatively easy but a little quirky to look after.

If you want proper hight maintenance, you might want to try a Ferrari of the same period.
March 19, 2010 4:10 p.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
BMWs are very easy to work on. Most parts are reasonable. They have a very strong technical following so most common problems have well sorted answers.

My 911 has many expensive parts but most maintenance items are reasonable. It is the stuff that does not wear that stabs you right in the wallet when it fails or gets damaged. There is tons of great tech data out there and lots of good community to help. It is a bit of a bear to work on and contains many razor sharp fasteners hidden just out of sight.

My (now gone) A4 and VW Passat were as ddavid said... awesome to be in when they worked well. Expensive parts, impossible to find electrical demons and packaging that made even simple DIY jobs difficult. The "community" is a pile of half-wit hacks who must be approximately 14yrs old. They can make a Golf with 4000hp but can't figure out why it keeps flinging metal parts thru the block. They will ruthlessly defend any piece of crap as an engineering marvel rather than help you fix it*. Both cars are gone for the same reason... when even small stuff broke it stranded you. (and I hate front wheel drive so when the wifey fell out of love... boom, gone).
- Stereotyping based on a sample of one good friend who believes VW has never, ever done anything even remotely close to wrong and does not find my relentless ripping on them funny at all.
March 19, 2010 4:11 p.m. racerdave600 Reader

Some cars, like my old 944 Turbo needed a front end rebuild about every 30k miles. That's the timing belt, balance shaft belts, water pump, seals, rollers etc. Some people don't change everything, but that's asking to do the job more than once every couple of years. GTV6's are similar.

Other cars just need a bunch of stuff to replace other bunches of stuff that breaks. My BMW was in that camp, as was my VW. The Porsche was really just maintenance items and catching up on all the deferred stuff the previous owner decided wasn't important.

Of course something else about the cars you mentioned, most of them are pretty complicated cars. Usually the more complicated something is, the more work it is going to need. And you do pay a price for living on the technology edge as a lot of the German stuff does.

A funny side note, I had a friend that bought an SLK a few years back. She was always going to the shop with the top half up and half down. Of course that was just the start of the electrical issues. Last I heard she still had the car, but bought a Nissan truck to drive everyday because it was cheaper to pay a car payment on the truck than the monthly bill to keep fixing the SLK. Now she only drives it a couple of times a month.

Newer cars typically have longer service intervals than older cars do, so taking out a few specific cars, it really comes down to how much something breaks.
March 19, 2010 4:40 p.m. jrg77 New Reader

racerdave600 wrote:

Other cars just need a bunch of stuff to replace other bunches of stuff that breaks. My BMW was in that camp, as was my VW.

I think I get this, but I'm not sure. Is this along the lines of special tools, or "might as well" parts?
March 19, 2010 4:56 p.m. TuffWork New Reader

I think he means that when you break some parts, you have to replace this seal, that gasket and the other mount thingy that you had to move/break/bend to get to the original part in question. Also, sometimes if you replace one thing without replacing another, things won't all work together well any more. For example, replacing an oil pump can cause you to have to change a head gasket later because the old head gasket can't withstand the new higher oil pressure. etc.
March 19, 2010 6:24 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

As far as the BMWs go, it depends on what generation 3-series you're talking about...the newer they are, the more complex they get.
March 19, 2010 6:45 p.m. Junkyard_Dog HalfDork

racerdave600 wrote:

The Porsche was really just maintenance items and catching up on all the deferred stuff the previous owner decided wasn't important.

This points out a problem I see every day. To wit: salesmen sell expensive vehicles to people who can't afford the upkeep. Usually the second or third owners but not always. There is a reason that $70k car is worth $20k 4 years later. If you have bad luck, you can end up paying monthly repair bills in excess of the payment on a brand new vehicle. You might have good luck and pay nothing, but you rolls the dice and takes your chances. To some all the headaches are just "character". To others they are the demon spawn of hell sent to torment them until their bank account is empty. Only you can decide which camp you belong in.
March 19, 2010 6:59 p.m. mad_machine PowerDork

stuart in mn wrote:

As far as the BMWs go, it depends on what generation 3-series you're talking about...the newer they are, the more complex they get.

Bingo... E21s can be fixed with a screwdriver, hammer, and Cwrench.. E30s might need some wrenches and ratchets.. E36 it is time to break out OBD reader and a multimeter... E46.. you need the computer hookup to adjust the computer.. E90x.... I hope you have a doctorate in electronics and have knowledge of rocketscience
March 19, 2010 8:49 p.m. nderwater Reader

mad_machine wrote: Bingo... E21s can be fixed with a screwdriver, hammer, and Cwrench.. E30s might need some wrenches and ratchets.. E36 it is time to break out OBD reader and a multimeter... E46.. you need the computer hookup to adjust the computer.. E90x.... I hope you have a doctorate in electronics and have knowledge of rocketscience.

That's pretty true of most cars these days though. My brother would swear that he could fix is ratty old Volvo 240 with a hammer. Now that my Dad has given up on trying to repair it, my mom's 2005 S80 gets treated to an expensive trip to the dealer every six months.
March 19, 2010 11:46 p.m. jrg77 New Reader

Junkyard_Dog wrote:

racerdave600 wrote:

The Porsche was really just maintenance items and catching up on all the deferred stuff the previous owner decided wasn't important.

This points out a problem I see every day. To wit: salesmen sell expensive vehicles to people who can't afford the upkeep. Usually the second or third owners but not always. There is a reason that $70k car is worth $20k 4 years later. If you have bad luck, you can end up paying monthly repair bills in excess of the payment on a brand new vehicle. You might have good luck and pay nothing, but you rolls the dice and takes your chances. To some all the headaches are just "character". To others they are the demon spawn of hell sent to torment them until their bank account is empty. Only you can decide which camp you belong in.

This precisely what prompted the post. It is cool to buy a car but nuts not to be able to maintain it. It becomes tragic if an actual repair comes along. I guess I'd like to roll the dice, but the checks my tail can cash are not that big. Sure is a shame though. This would be perfect if it would stay together: http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ctd/1651558194.html
March 20, 2010 1:02 a.m. Salanis UberDork

jrg77 wrote:

This precisely what prompted the post. It is cool to buy a car but nuts not to be able to maintain it. It becomes tragic if an actual repair comes along. I guess I'd like to roll the dice, but the checks my tail can cash are not that big. Sure is a shame though. This would be perfect if it would stay together: http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ctd/1651558194.html

Dunno why it wouldn't. I had my M Coupe for three years and plenty of miles, pretty much trouble free. I had a few piddly little things: belts, 02 sensors, and other wear items. Oddest things I ran into were an alarm switch getting finicky (fixed that by unplugging the switch), and it needed new trunk prop shocks and the actuator for the trunk release (key worked fine, only the push button didn't).
March 20, 2010 1:12 a.m. JeepinMatt HalfDork

Parts for my E30 are pretty reasonable. Parts for my parents' '05 E46 were not.
March 20, 2010 8:59 a.m. Teh E36 M3 Reader

ddavidv wrote:

... if you don't have access to the golden VAG scan tool.

He said VAG scan tool.
March 20, 2010 12:07 p.m. Salanis UberDork

Teh E36 M3 wrote:

ddavidv wrote:

... if you don't have access to the golden VAG scan tool.

He said VAG scan tool.

Does that have something to do with the proven fact that all newer Audis are driven by Cocks?
March 20, 2010 12:23 p.m. BoxheadTim HalfDork

Is that the going rate for an E36 M3 then? Just wondering, if that's the case then I better recalibrate my car valuation estimates. But then again I did notice that cars seem to be more expensive in the US.
March 20, 2010 7:20 p.m. Slyp_Dawg Reader

jrg77 wrote:

This would be perfect if it would stay together: http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/ctd/1651558194.html

am I the only one who noticed that the person selling that doesn't know the difference between a V6 and a straight-6? just sayin'... get an old (aka '70s or even '60s) 911, keep on top of maintance, and be done with it. admittedly there isn't a lot that can go wrong with the very early 911s, and I would imagine that working on them would be reasonably easy. then again, that's an assumption and everyone knows the saying about assuming...
March 20, 2010 7:27 p.m. aussiesmg UltraDork

You would look so right in that car mate, by the way your email continues to reject any attempt I make to contact you Jason

Steve
March 20, 2010 7:37 p.m. Knurled New Reader

NYG95GA wrote:

Take note:

All the cars you mentioned in your first paragraph are German cars.

Designed with the precision and maintenance requirements that prevented them from winning two world wars.

That said, my Audi is a GTO. Gas, tires, and oil. Lots and lots of oil. But, nothing else.
March 20, 2010 10:55 p.m. GI_Drewsifer Reader

Nothing is more expensive than a cheap sports car (or harder to maintain).

I've also heard : Speed, reliability, safety - Pick two.

Some cars just require more love. Some cards need you to be proactive, and fix things before they become a problem (timing belts on 944's for example). Any car can be a basket case, but only some cars can put a smile on your face (Before they explode in greasy flames).
March 21, 2010 5:29 a.m. Appleseed Dork

If I get rid of reliability and safety, can I have more speed?

And don't forget, some cars, regardless of brand or age, will outright hate you, no matter what.
March 21, 2010 10:25 p.m. johnhammer New Reader

I fell in love with a stunning Italian redhead...

An '87 Alfa Romeo Milano Platinum.

Multi-cam V6, deDion rear end, inboard disc brakes...it was a brilliant car...WHEN it ran.

I owned it for about 3 years, had nearly $7k in it between purchase & all the repairs / maintenance...and was able to sell it for $1,500.

Gulp!
March 22, 2010 3:28 a.m. jrg77 New Reader

aussiesmg wrote:

You would look so right in that car mate, by the way your email continues to reject any attempt I make to contact you Jason

Steve

different address. look for a PM.

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