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wbjones wrote:there is a very simple solution... so simple that it stands a snowballs chance in hell of ever being adopted .... SCCA swallow your pride and come up with a classing system like NASA's... yeah I know they would get sued if they just copied the NASA system.. but I don't think NASA could stop them from using the same basic system.........
oh well ... like I said ain't ever gunna happen
The biggest reason IMO not to do this is that building a car becomes a LOT more expensive.
The NASA classing system is crazy if you ask me. Stuff like gutting the interior, adding a race seat, ripping out the A/C are 0 point mods (as long as you meet min weight) but deleting a factory lip spoiler is +4 points.
Soma007 wrote:The NASA classing system is crazy if you ask me. Stuff like gutting the interior, adding a race seat, ripping out the A/C are 0 point mods (as long as you meet min weight) but deleting a factory lip spoiler is +4 points.
The SCCA classing system is crazy if you ask me. I show up to race in "Stock" and I have to have illegal to drive on in most states racing tires at $1500/set, $6000 remote-reservoir shocks, and yet if I run actual street tires on my car the only class available requires that I have a complete suspension swap, aftermarket LSD, header, exhaust, ECM tune, and an aluminum drag race seat to even think about being competitive.
Javelin wrote:Soma007 wrote:The NASA classing system is crazy if you ask me. Stuff like gutting the interior, adding a race seat, ripping out the A/C are 0 point mods (as long as you meet min weight) but deleting a factory lip spoiler is +4 points.
The SCCA classing system is crazy if you ask me. I show up to race in "Stock" and I have to have illegal to drive on in most states racing tires at $1500/set, $6000 remote-reservoir shocks, and yet if I run actual street tires on my car the only class available requires that I have a complete suspension swap, aftermarket LSD, header, exhaust, ECM tune, and an aluminum drag race seat to even think about being competitive.
Just for the sake of not confusing others who read this later, you don't HAVE to have any of those things.
I know, I'm just making a point.
"STOCK" is a level of preparation, not a definition. Let's make that clear. There is no 'street-stock' class or 'showroom-stock' class...no matter where you want to play in SOLO2, it will take some money and effort to be competetive on a bigger stage (not just local events).
That's because NASA's classing rules are geared towards road racing, not auto-x, and IMO, not gutting the interior of a car for road racing makes zero sense.
Javelin's complaints are because he believes he has to have those things in order to be competitive... R-comps, I'll give him... but custom tuned Koni's for a MINI don't run anywhere near $6000 and are often available used for a lot less.
Maybe it would less controversial if the classes were renamed: Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc...
Why have custom-tuned shocks in Stock at all?
Not to derail my own thread, but what the hey...
Stock should be redacted to 140 treadwear tires, factory equipped shocks only, and even get rid of the aftermarket FSB. Only legal mods are wheels, tires, brake pads, and cat-back/axle-back along with fluids and air filter.
Then ST should be the next step up with springs, shocks, swaybars, and that's it for suspension (no need for bushings, control arms, or different rear links on SRA cars). Add in the CAI, shifter, EPA LEGAL cat and header, and wider wheels. NO tuning (boy is that a can of worms right now).
Then SP, P, and Mod can all stay the same. Clear progression of mods and much more entry-level friendly.
This isn't a new complaint...in the 70s folks were complaining about jerks with Bilstein Sport shocks. Vredestein, or Phoenix Stahlflex tires in "stock" class. That was THE way to win.
Yes, these were horse driven autocross cars. God I'm old.
Aw come on Jeff, you're not that old... yet 
(Just getting a jump on the mind games for next season 
)
Why? Legacy. You are applying current technology to rules that were written before many of us were driving.
Tires were made open in Stock because the tire companies were selling tires that were basically race tires with tread on them.
Replacement shocks and FSB's were allowed because the OE parts were so bad back then and you needed upgraded shocks and a thicker bar just to make the car drivable. Having driven our '73 1800ES before and after a swaybar upgrade, I can completely understand this.
There are already rumblings about the 140TW number being too low... remember when it used to be 200? The tire makers complained. Plus, look at that number as it is applied to the current top tires. The number varies from 140 to 200. The number is B.S. and everyone knows it.
The last issue is size availability. While this has improved some as the competitive cars have moved towards larger wheels, if you want to run an older car in Stock, you are basically screwed with a 140TW restriction since the tire manufacturers have basically abandoned that market. Don't believe me? Go find some correct size 14" tires for my E30.
As mentioned, this is not a new arguement. And nobody is saying your criticisms have no validity. However, unless somebody can guarantee some huge increase in participation with such a wholesale rules change, it'll never happen. Ever.
Someday, I'd like to write an article called "tuned vs. talented".
Team A- Locally competitive driver in a car at the bleeding edge of the rules allowances
Team B- Super talented driver (Think Mark Daddio/Danny Shields level of talent) in the stock equivalent of Team A's car.
I'll bet Team B wins, even on street tires with stock shocks.
Tom, I'd agree with you, but I've seen what a fresh set of V710's or A6's can do with even the most talentless cludge behind the wheel. I honestly feel that's the #1 reason the r-comps will never go away as then a whole lot of people will have to admit they aren't as good as they thought.
DILYSI Dave wrote:you do if you want to be competitive ... if you don't want to be competitive then no....Javelin wrote:Soma007 wrote:The NASA classing system is crazy if you ask me. Stuff like gutting the interior, adding a race seat, ripping out the A/C are 0 point mods (as long as you meet min weight) but deleting a factory lip spoiler is +4 points.
The SCCA classing system is crazy if you ask me. I show up to race in "Stock" and I have to have illegal to drive on in most states racing tires at $1500/set, $6000 remote-reservoir shocks, and yet if I run actual street tires on my car the only class available requires that I have a complete suspension swap, aftermarket LSD, header, exhaust, ECM tune, and an aluminum drag race seat to even think about being competitive.
Just for the sake of not confusing others who read this later, you don't HAVE to have any of those things.
but if you're not trying to win I really do get it....... and yeah I know some a-x just for the fun of it... that's how I started, didn't take long before I decided I really didn't like getting my arse kicked... still happens, just no as often nor as badly 
Tom, you are correct... but put Mark or Danny in car A, and see what happens... so yeah talent makes more difference than mods but if the no-talent driver at his local event can't make up some of the difference with those mods he's quite likely to wonder off , with the mods he can feel better as he gets better....
Javelin wrote:Tom, I'd agree with you, but I've seen what a fresh set of V710's or A6's can do with even the most talentless cludge behind the wheel. I honestly feel that's the #1 reason the r-comps will never go away as then a whole lot of people will have to admit they aren't as good as they thought.
Even "talentless cludges" want to go faster; it's the nature of the beast. Big ego's are NOT the reason race-compounds will be around for quite a while. R-comps simply perform in ways that "street" tires cannot emulate - yet.
I never ran in Stock, but had to endure this exact debate when R-comps were first allowed in Stock classes. Guess what, after most every competitor went with the R's, the same guys were winning and the same people were griping. The cream rises - and there's less room at the top of the bottle.
Tom Heath wrote:Someday, I'd like to write an article called "tuned vs. talented".
Team A- Locally competitive driver in a car at the bleeding edge of the rules allowances
Team B- Super talented driver (Think Mark Daddio/Danny Shields level of talent) in the stock equivalent of Team A's car.
I'll bet Team B wins, even on street tires with stock shocks.
Someday I would like to read that article!
Tom Heath wrote:Someday, I'd like to write an article called "tuned vs. talented".
Team A- Locally competitive driver in a car at the bleeding edge of the rules allowances
Team B- Super talented driver (Think Mark Daddio/Danny Shields level of talent) in the stock equivalent of Team A's car.
I'll bet Team B wins, even on street tires with stock shocks.
Write it. Please.
Javelin wrote:Tom, I'd agree with you, but I've seen what a fresh set of V710's or A6's can do with even the most talentless cludge behind the wheel. I honestly feel that's the #1 reason the r-comps will never go away as then a whole lot of people will have to admit they aren't as good as they thought.
Maybe... maybe not... I watched the novice instructor in our region take top PAX in his daily driver... Prius... on stock all-seasons... He's quick in our region... although not as much at Nationals. But regardless, sometime the local fast guys are still decent drivers.
So I'm not sure what that article would really prove... that talent is still more important? Well... duh.
Javelin wrote:Tom, I'd agree with you, but I've seen what a fresh set of V710's or A6's can do with even the most talentless cludge behind the wheel. I honestly feel that's the #1 reason the r-comps will never go away as then a whole lot of people will have to admit they aren't as good as they thought.
R-compond tires aren't going to go away anytime soon is because they make autocrossing a lot more fun.
They aren't even THAT much faster than good streets on most surfaces. 2 seconds on an average 60 second course at best. They aren't going to automatically transform a "talentless cludge" into a top driver on their own.
The best drivers will always be the fastest no matter if they're running on A6's, Star Specs, or 600 treadwear Pep Boys tires.
Tom Heath wrote:Someday, I'd like to write an article called "tuned vs. talented".
Team A- Locally competitive driver in a car at the bleeding edge of the rules allowances
Team B- Super talented driver (Think Mark Daddio/Danny Shields level of talent) in the stock equivalent of Team A's car.
I'll bet Team B wins, even on street tires with stock shocks.
We have that play out quite often in Atlanta. I'm in a bleeding edge EF, while our very competitive ST drivers are in ST EF's. I'm pretty solid locally, have picked up a few tour trophies, and trophied at Nats for the first time this past year, but I'm not top shelf like Tim Smith or Bill Bounds, who I regularly run against.
For a while, we were pretty back and forth on who would win. As I got the car better dialed in, I started beating them by a pretty consistent 2 seconds. If it rains, they beat me. If I have my head up my ass (Nats) they beat me. If I can jsut show up and drive my race, I beat them. But I've got double the engine and double the grip, so I should. Either of them can jump in my car though and in a matter of a few laps put a 1-2 second smack down on me.
DILYSI Dave wrote:We have that play out quite often in Atlanta. I'm in a bleeding edge EF, while our very competitive ST drivers are in ST EF's. I'm pretty solid locally, have picked up a few tour trophies, and trophied at Nats for the first time this past year, but I'm not top shelf like Tim Smith or Bill Bounds, who I regularly run against.
For a while, we were pretty back and forth on who would win. As I got the car better dialed in, I started beating them by a pretty consistent 2 seconds. If it rains, they beat me. If I have my head up my ass (Nats) they beat me. If I can jsut show up and drive my race, I beat them. But I've got double the engine and double the grip, so I should. Either of them can jump in my car though and in a matter of a few laps put a 1-2 second smack down on me.
Milwaukee is very similar to the ATL for ST...we have Jason Frank and Pat Washburn, Craig Mankowicz who have all been in the top 3 at Nationals (and are usually near or at the top of PAX locally too)...it's a good day for me to be inside of 2 seconds to those guys.
