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Klayfish
Klayfish SuperDork
8/30/13 8:55 p.m.
irish44j wrote: In 5-10 years if battery technology has advanced to make them 2, 3, 5 times more efficient I'd have to think that the battery manufacturers (or some aftermarket company) will sell retrofittable batteries for the Leaf and other current EVs. I'm sure major manufacturers can figure out how to put improved battery packs into older EVs.

I'm betting that's exactly the plan. The very first leases on the Leaf are going to be expiring fairly soon. So before long, Nissan is going to have a very steady flow of returned lease Leafs. They're going to have to do something with them, and it'll be a bit of a tough sell to move a 2-3 year old car with a wearing out battery. Especially when they've got a shiny new model on the showroom floor. I'd expect that they'll replace the battery with a new upgraded one and sell it that way as a used car.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
8/30/13 10:14 p.m.
Klayfish wrote:
irish44j wrote: In 5-10 years if battery technology has advanced to make them 2, 3, 5 times more efficient I'd have to think that the battery manufacturers (or some aftermarket company) will sell retrofittable batteries for the Leaf and other current EVs. I'm sure major manufacturers can figure out how to put improved battery packs into older EVs.

I'm betting that's exactly the plan. The very first leases on the Leaf are going to be expiring fairly soon. So before long, Nissan is going to have a very steady flow of returned lease Leafs. They're going to have to do something with them, and it'll be a bit of a tough sell to move a 2-3 year old car with a wearing out battery. Especially when they've got a shiny new model on the showroom floor. I'd expect that they'll replace the battery with a new upgraded one and sell it that way as a used car.

Now if only they can retrofit them with a whole new body as well that doesn't look so ugly :)

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 Dork
8/30/13 10:32 p.m.

^^^At least it has good aero

daytonaer
daytonaer HalfDork
8/31/13 12:04 a.m.

I had to search for these after reading this.

My father is retiring in 1.5 years, commutes 15 miles 5 days a week.

My thought process; convince him to get one with the idea to sell upon retirement. Purchase used mazda 6 upon retirement (already planned 2014 mazda 6 in next few years so no real game change)

If said focus can be purchased for 35,200, Minus the 10,750, Minus the Federal 7,500. Brings us to 16950 plus 1467 taxes. plus a trade of various crap one of us has paid off with value at least 5k can put us in the ball park of 15,000 plus or minus a few hundred for stupid fees and non-negotiable trades.

If he then sells it in 1.5 to 2 years for at least 19k he will come out even. I have a hard time believing it wouldn't move for at least 20-25k used.

Then I went to find one.

Inventory is short almost everywhere. Found one at a local ( to me, not him) poor reuptation dealer for $41,049! only option leather, and that is a $975 option!!

I will go in to the dealer and talk numbers on Tuesday, but seriously, this looks like dealer shenagans preventing me or others from purchasing new cars.

If they say 41k minus the 10k incentive I'm going to walk. I skipped over a scion f86 last year because they wouldn't budge with delivery fees and adjusted marked bs.

And people wonder why the general non-car loving population hate cars.

Mental
Mental Mod Squad
8/31/13 3:07 a.m.
Javelin wrote: ...That puts it at $25,640 all-in for my local dealer, or some $5,310 *less* than a comparable Leaf. That means after the $7500 tax credit, and selling her car for $4K, we'd be in it to win it at $14,140! Damn.

It would appear Nissan noticed as well. Nissan Leaf $21,300

The price wars have started.

Klayfish
Klayfish SuperDork
8/31/13 6:45 a.m.
daytonaer wrote: If he then sells it in 1.5 to 2 years for at least 19k he will come out even. I have a hard time believing it wouldn't move for at least 20-25k used.

Don't bet on it. Used inventory is short right now because there aren't many of them on the road. The Leaf has only been out 2 years and they sold very, very few in 2011 and 2012. It's only 2013 that sales have skyrocketed. Most are leases, so even the 2011s and 2012s are still with the original owners. The ones I've seen on the used market are nearly new, hence they the asking price isn't far off new. This is still new technology with an untested used market. It's not a hybrid either, which can still function with a weak or dead battery...aka first gen Insight. Those keep their value because even with a weak battery, they still get great MPG and a replacement is available. When the Leaf battery gets really weak, the car is literally useless until you get a new one. I think that's going to really effect resale value. People may not want to buy a used EV that already has a wearing out battery. Plus, as I mentioned before, the newest and greatest will be on the showroom floor. I was extremely tempted to buy a Leaf instead of leasing mine. Coulda had it for $15-$16k. But I just wasn't willing to take the risk. Leasing lets me hedge my bet.

Mental,
Nissan has had that price for a while. That price is after the $7500 federal rebate from the government, which the dealer will keep.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/31/13 8:09 a.m.
kreb wrote: I don't want to give up my garage to park it. How comfortable are we with charging it in the rain?

My Volt lives outside,and is charged from an outside-wall mounted GE Wattstation charger. I bought the GE charger specifically because it was weather-rated (and it makes my driveway look really futurey). I haven't been electrocuted yet that I'm aware of.

jg

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
8/31/13 9:13 a.m.

I just can't do the 100 mile range.

200 mile range.....Yup.

nderwater
nderwater UberDork
8/31/13 9:18 a.m.

I've driven the Focus Electric and am intrigued. Does anyone know the current lease rate on these cars?

iceracer
iceracer UberDork
8/31/13 9:54 a.m.

Wait. That $7500, Is it a rebate or a tax reduction ? or credit ? Seems to be a lot of confusion on this.

iceracer
iceracer UberDork
8/31/13 10:29 a.m.

Just did a search. The $7500 is an income tax credit and may be less on some cars and not available on some. it is being phased out btw. It is available on a Fisker.

fidelity101
fidelity101 Dork
8/31/13 10:33 a.m.

The real question is, how many jiggawatts!?

Mental
Mental Mod Squad
8/31/13 10:35 a.m.
Klayfish wrote: ...Mental, Nissan has had that price for a while. That price is after the $7500 federal rebate from the government, which the dealer will keep.

Dangit! I thought I was onto something

Klayfish
Klayfish SuperDork
8/31/13 12:05 p.m.

The $7500 is a rebate. The dealer typically keeps it and applies the rebate towards the purchase or lease (cap cost) of the car.

t25torx
t25torx Reader
8/31/13 12:32 p.m.

Thankfully it is qualified for the full rebate, according to the IRS site. There is one at my local dealer, I'll have to check it out, I just got a Honda Insight, but it's not giving me warm fuzzies and this might be the ticket.

iceracer
iceracer UberDork
8/31/13 4:53 p.m.

Since it is a credit, does that apply to your income tax ?

Vigo
Vigo UberDork
8/31/13 7:50 p.m.
Thankfully it is qualified for the full rebate, according to the IRS site. There is one at my local dealer, I'll have to check it out, I just got a Honda Insight, but it's not giving me warm fuzzies and this might be the ticket.

Did you get a 2g Insight? Somebody just posted a new thread asking about them that could use your input!

t25torx
t25torx Reader
8/31/13 8:03 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
Thankfully it is qualified for the full rebate, according to the IRS site. There is one at my local dealer, I'll have to check it out, I just got a Honda Insight, but it's not giving me warm fuzzies and this might be the ticket.
Did you get a 2g Insight? Somebody just posted a new thread asking about them that could use your input!

No, it's a first gen. I'm not sure if I can live with 70hp.. and with my driving style I'm not seeing huge MPG numbers either. So this might allow me to have my cake and eat it too.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
9/1/13 12:48 a.m.
fidelity101 wrote: The real question is, how many jiggawatts!?

1.21

dean1484
dean1484 PowerDork
9/1/13 9:29 a.m.

Thanks for posting this Javelin!!!

I have been looking at the Volt for a while. I have a 40 mile round trip commute so I was thinking it would be a great car for me as it has a 50 mile range on 100 percent electric but at 34K (36K the way I would really want it) this really is something to seriously consider. I also like the styling of the Ford better.

Vigo
Vigo UberDork
9/1/13 11:08 a.m.
No, it's a first gen. I'm not sure if I can live with 70hp.. and with my driving style I'm not seeing huge MPG numbers either. So this might allow me to have my cake and eat it too.

Oh ok. I have a 1st gen as well. It doesn't accelerate very well but i've verified the 112mph top speed even with 300k+ miles. My driving and driving environment nets ~50mpg. Most of my fast driving happens on the highways and it will still do it so the only time it ever bothers me is stop and go. I have collected some turbo parts for it. I recently picked up a much smaller turbo for it than the one i had originally planned to use..

Anyway, and i posted this in one of the many Leaf threads, i drove a Leaf and decided it was quick in the wrong way for my kind of speeding. It's very strong from a stop but becomes pretty weak by highway speeds, and trying to drive truly fast will be both unrewarding and a total range-killer. The electric Focus is likely to be the same way. I dont get much of a thrill doing <50mph unless it's a tight radius turn or a rolling burnout, and that's the only speed range an electric commuter car is going to feel strong (and it wont do rolling burnouts or turn like an 1800lb honda). On the highway a 70hp Insight will out-accelerate the Leaf, and probably the Focus as well. Remember that insight 2nd gear goes to 72mph and 3rd goes to top speed. When i first got mine i thought it was horrendously slow on the highway too because i was using 4th.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
9/1/13 11:52 a.m.

In reply to Vigo:

I have a 360 cubic inch V8 with 2.73 gears for high speed acceleration.

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 Dork
9/1/13 12:17 p.m.

For those of you that don't know, When buying a car like this it is important to keep in mind the intent. It's just an appliance that runs on electricity instead of liquid fuel and takes longer to "refuel".

Definitely wouldn't recommend it to someone as their only car - like my 70 year old grandparents. It is a good point A to point B car but the battery quickly drains if you start adding points - like on a Sat or Sun running errands. Even moreso with a/c and night driving.

That's why I got the Volt instead.

Vigo
Vigo UberDork
9/1/13 12:28 p.m.
I have a 360 cubic inch V8 with 2.73 gears for high speed acceleration.

That's great, but it doesnt even begin to approach the issue of why people are looking at hybrids and EVs in the first place. If you have a mostly-highway commute, or the only way you have fun in a car is accelerating at highway speeds, you're looking for a car that's going to do that without costing you a fortune in fuel in the process. Preferably, wife and kids would even be willing to ride in it.

I just dont think the full electrics are there yet for people who want brisk highway acceleration AND decent range. The Tesla is about the only mainstream EV that moves well at higher speeds. Some of the hybrids do ok on the highway, but none of them are truly quick and STILL get good highway mpg. About the best Hwy mpg you can get out of a 'fast' hybrid is low 30s.

Klayfish
Klayfish SuperDork
9/1/13 12:41 p.m.
amg_rx7 wrote: It is a good point A to point B car but the battery quickly drains if you start adding points - like on a Sat or Sun running errands. Even moreso with a/c and night driving. That's why I got the Volt instead.

Whether it's the Leaf or the Focus, yes, they're limited to range of about 75 miles. So even if you've got points C, D, E and F you're fine as long as you keep the total trip under 75 miles. If everything is local, then it would work. But if all your points are far apart, it wouldn't make a great car. The a/c and lights use surprisingly little power, and the optional LED headlights use almost none. The heater is the real power hog. I'd guess the Focus is the same, but the Leaf has heated front and rear seats as well as a heated steering wheel as standard equipment, because it takes less to run those than the heater itself. So the idea is to heat the seats and wheel so you won't use the cabin heat as much.

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