How bad are E36 BMWs really?

racerdave600 wrote: As I stated above mine was purchased and maintained by the dealer. It was sold at 70k miles and required constant maintenance, but it still looked and drove like new when it was sold. I wouldn't call it a bad car by any stretch, and I absolutely loved driving it, but it had a ton of failures that I think shouldn't have been there given it's cost. The oil leaks and head failure when it was pretty much new started the trend, which fortunately didn't come back after the initial fixes, but the constant electrical and AC issues were a source of frustration. I know of others that have had zero issues to be fair, and others that happened at almost exactly the same mileages as mine, so it seemed to be hit or miss. Also to be fair, my dad is a big BMW guy, and his newer 5 series and BMW suv "whatever they are" have been great with hardly any issues other than the blower motor failure on the 5 (covered under warranty). Even the iDrive in the new one is much improved. My biggest issue had to do with this being a 4-door family / work car. It's one thing if the Porsche tended to be a bit maintenance intensive, it's another if my work car is constantly being fixed, even if the majority of it was under warranty. Having said all of this, the real question is would I buy another, and I suppose the answer would be yes. It really did drive that well....and I keep looking at how low M3 prices have become...oh so tempting. i'm really waiting for the prices of the Z4 M Coupe to drop to a point I want to pay.

What year was your E36?

I wouldn't touch a 1992 3-series with a 10 foot pole.

I hope you guys realized my Toyota/Honda comment was VERY tongue in cheek. Obviously no car is maintenance free, But BMWs seem to get a bad rap due to the typical BMW enthusiast forum attitude that demands all new owners get a whole bunch of stuff replaced right away after buying. I think it scares people away, they get the idea that this means the cars break all the time, but it's really just that they are so great once you get the little fixes done. I can't imagine anyone's ever regretted the money they spent on bushings an cooling parts on an E36. Small cost for what you get in return.

Also, anyone who lives south or west of me is severely unqualified to tell me what does or doesn't rust . According to records, My E36 has lived its whole 11 years in northern New England, within a few miles of the ocean. The only hint of rust on the car is some surface rust near one of the drains on the rear door where it appears to have been plugged at one point. Nothing on the chassis at all. Those who live up here can tell you how impressive that is.

Josh wrote: I hope you guys realized my Toyota/Honda comment was VERY tongue in cheek. Obviously no car is maintenance free, But BMWs seem to get a bad rap due to the typical BMW enthusiast forum attitude that demands all new owners get a whole bunch of stuff replaced right away after buying. I think it scares people away, they get the idea that this means the cars break all the time, but it's really just that they are so great once you get the little fixes done. I can't imagine anyone's ever regretted the money they spent on bushings an cooling parts on an E36. Small cost for what you get in return. Also, anyone who lives south or west of me is severely unqualified to tell me what does or doesn't rust . According to records, My E36 has lived its whole 11 years in northern New England, within a few miles of the ocean. The only hint of rust on the car is some surface rust near one of the drains on the rear door where it appears to have been plugged at one point. Nothing on the chassis at all. Those who live up here can tell you how impressive that is.

My E36 rusted a bit more than that.... but it WAS impressive at how little it did compared to my other cars up there when i lived in New England.

And i know the Toyota/honda thing was tongue in cheek, can't speak for the others though.

My E36 was rock solid reliable, interior held up well, ran like a raped ape. I DID have to do a water pump on it, but that was about the extent of the failures.

93celicaGT2 wrote: I wouldn't touch a 1992 3-series with a 10 foot pole.

Hmmm - why?

I think the '92 is slightly lighter than later years.

It has the non-vanos M-50, which I think is a plus.

Some of the earliest cars have slight differences in the front suspension, but no big deal as long as you know what you've got.

The interior in mine has held up better than most I've seen.

Why are we hatin' the 92's?

I just know that every 3-series that rolls through our shop as a used car ends up with a shopping list longer than my arm of stuff that needs attention. Looking at the prices to fix/parts costs that steers me away quickly.

bludroptop wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: I wouldn't touch a 1992 3-series with a 10 foot pole.

Hmmm - why? I think the '92 is slightly lighter than later years. It has the non-vanos M-50, which I think is a plus. Some of the earliest cars have slight differences in the front suspension, but no big deal as long as you know what you've got. The interior in mine has held up better than most I've seen. Why are we hatin' the 92's?

Father of a friend of mine got a 92 325i about the same time i got my 93 325i. Both cars were dealer serviced, had about the same miles, had the same options, both 5-speed manuals.

When they were both running fine, I couldn't tell a difference between them.

His was ALWAYS back in the shop for... something. And everything. The BMW DEALERSHIP themselves said that they saw more 92s than any other model year of the E36s come through there, that they seemed to be hit with "teething" issues of first year new model harder than usual.

Is this all true? I have no idea whatsoever if this is normal. But i still won't buy one. YMMV of course.

Bobzilla wrote: I just know that every 3-series that rolls through our shop as a used car ends up with a shopping list longer than my arm of stuff that needs attention. Looking at the prices to fix/parts costs that steers me away quickly.

How many roll through your shop vs how many are still owned and driven out on the street?

I ask this because it's one of the critisisms I have of people who work in mechanical shops, who talk about the cars they see. Of course the ones you see are broken. No one's bringing in their good ones to be repaired. What's the ratio of the ones you see to the ones you DON'T see?

And where are you sourcing your parts? The $800 I've spent on parts over the last two years on my 740 would have been over $3k at a dealer.

Josh wrote: Also, anyone who lives south or west of me is severely unqualified to tell me what does or doesn't rust . According to records, My E36 has lived its whole 11 years in northern New England, within a few miles of the ocean. The only hint of rust on the car is some surface rust near one of the drains on the rear door where it appears to have been plugged at one point. Nothing on the chassis at all. Those who live up here can tell you how impressive that is.

My 96 Ti has only a few rust issues.. and 99% of them came from the accident it was in that totalled it. The car spent a few years along the ocean in NC before moving to Upstate NY (where it was totalled and repaired) and then went to western Mass (where the salvage title suspeciously disappeared)

Aside from some rot on the rear right wheel well and the passengerside floor where the car was welded on and not properly sealed.. the only rust issues I have was the mostly stock exhaust system

Chris_V wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: I just know that every 3-series that rolls through our shop as a used car ends up with a shopping list longer than my arm of stuff that needs attention. Looking at the prices to fix/parts costs that steers me away quickly.

How many roll through your shop vs how many are still owned and driven out on the street? I ask this because it's one of the critisisms I have of people who work in mechanical shops, who talk about the cars they see. Of course the ones you see are broken. No one's bringing in their good ones to be repaired. What's the ratio of the ones you see to the ones you DON'T see? And where are you sourcing your parts? The $800 I've spent on parts over the last two years on my 740 would have been over $3k at a dealer.

Parts are sourced where ever we can find them. Some dealer, some aftermarket. These are USED cars being inspected to go out on the lot for resale. Not repair jobs. 2/3 never make it to our lot because it's not worht the money to make them safe and trouble free for our customers.

Depending on the time of year, how the economy is doing and how the auctions go we'll see 2-4 per week. Our UCSM has gotten a bit gunshy about buying the used bmw's and mercs.

Bobzilla wrote: I just know that every 3-series that rolls through our shop as a used car ends up with a shopping list longer than my arm of stuff that needs attention. Looking at the prices to fix/parts costs that steers me away quickly.

This is sort of proving my analogy. You're an independent all makes used lot, right? I'd bet most of the cars you get came from the second owners who wanted the name, but couldn't afford to keep them up. That's who ends up having to trade in their cars when they can't afford to keep them. The good one owner cars usually end up on BMW dealer certified or BMW/Euro specialist lots. The best ones never leave enthusiast hands.

No, I'm from a manufacturer.

98' M3 bought from original owner when his 7 year CPO (he bought it off his lease) expired. 58k miles, 60k service already done. Completely bone stock. So of course, I've done everything than can be done w/o going inside the engine. For the first time in my life, since I'm old and have sort of a real job, I got the good stuff for everything, and cut no corners. Nothing flashy, but all useful stuff.

2 weekends ago I did an Evolution autocross school. 30 runs give or take in an afternoon. Sadly, it was the end of my clutch. Multiple launches with Sam Strano in your passenger seat will do that. Over the next week, and in consideration of the fact I had essentially no time, I gave money to a shop (!) to install the living room full of parts I'd accumulated: A complete Zionsville race aluminum cooling system, Stewart water pump, underdrive pulleys, F+R control arms, Powerflex bushings for the FCAs and subframe-to-body, new oem bushings or ball joints everywhere else, J+B AL flywheel and Clutchmasters stg 1 clutch. Everything else has been done over the past couple years, Conforti intake and software, AST suspension, UUC and H&R 'bars, trans mounts, UUC shifter, guibo, center bearing, Corsa exhaust, Euro M3 front rotors, etc, etc, Between Friday and Sunday evenings, I drove to VIR and did a 2 day HPDE. About 650 miles in 2 days, about 180 of that on track. I'm doing one at Shenandoah next Saturday, then Summit Point the 25th +26th, plus an autocross series and driving on the street when it's nice out.

It's all done now. All the hideous work is finished, and with parts that work better and should last a long time. I've got maybe $22k in the car, which is a lot by my my life-long vehicular bottom feeder standards, but it beautiful, it's actually sort of fast, and handles genuinely well, and you can get from VIR to the DC/MD suburbs in less than 3 hours and enjoy every second.

In 33 years of cars, this one is the best money I've ever spent on one. Ever. The thing about these old Kraut cars, is that once you replace all the stuff that's used up, you get a new car again.

I am looking at buying an E36 for a fun daily driver slash miata replacement here in the next month or so. Would it be a wise choice to shoot for a higher mileage well maintained M3 (140k) over a lower mileage average condition 328i (90k)? The M3 is towards the outer end of my price range and I don't want to end up with an uber expensive car to fix. Is there anything more prone to breaking on an M3 over a 328?

I don't think anything is "more" prone to breaking, but I'd leave 1000-1500 in the budget for deferred maintenance, unless you know that there is none. I've put about $1000 in mine for bushings/control arms/fluids etc. (expected when I bought it) and I'm still looking for dampers..... I love it though. I'd definitely consider a clean 328i though. The only consideration there is some subframe reinforcing is included on 3.2M3's if you intend to use it for heavy track use.

I've had a 328i for almost 1.5 yrs now. Bought it with 130k miles and its got about 145k now. Minimal service history, but AC and cooling system were gone through about 2 yrs before I bought it.

Since I've had it I had to do the following:

one rear wheel bearing Cyclonic oil separator thingie - BMW's $100 PCV valve? fix failed ignition switch (car would not turn off when key was removed - had to stall it and disconnect batt - not sure what I would have done if it was an automatic) new cats and front O2 sensors new rear trailing arm bushings 4 new shocks

All of which are fairly common failures or wear items on these cars from what I've read. Only one that stranded me was the ignition switch.

It could use: tie rods rebuilt driveshaft 2 bent wheels repaired or straightened steering pump? it's noisy but works fine

Definitely more expensive to have around than any Japanese car I've owned with similar mileage, but it's a great car to drive, and I don't think there's anything else I'd prefer for the same money (repairs included). The time it takes to deal with all these things is the only thing that really sours the experience somewhat.

I think it all boils down to what people have in the pocket and what they consider "normal". I don't consider spending $80 on oil changes, suspension bushings and bent control arms "normal" so my view is a little jaded. I guess I've just been spoiled by my Korean cars and Domestic trucks.

Bobzilla wrote: I think it all boils down to what people have in the pocket and what they consider "normal". I don't consider spending $80 on oil changes, suspension bushings and bent control arms "normal" so my view is a little jaded. I guess I've just been spoiled by my Korean cars and Domestic trucks.

Let's see, the 7 series uses 7 quarts of oil and the filter costs < $10 (and it's one of the easiest cars to change oil on I've ever had). Don't see it as any worse than any other car. Suspension bushings on cars over 100k miles are fairly normal across brands (my VWs and Honda both needed them in that time frame).

it cost me less to own and maintain this car than a new Hyundai with a warranty, and I know which is more rewarding to drive.

^ Generalize much? I've replaced a t-belt and brakes in 105k miles on the former auto-x'er (talk about fun for the $$) and thanks to previous owners who thought trans fluid changes were unneccessary in 120k miles a trans and tires on the wifes beater hyundai wit h164k miles. Neither has required a single suspension arm or bushing to be replaced. Granted hers is a pig in the fun to drive factor, I bet I have less invested in total money in BOTH cars as what the entry fee for the 7 is. 7 qts of $5 M1 and $10 filter is still more than my 4 qts of $5 M1 and a $4 filter. In fact, according to my calculator it's almost half.

I see upscale hondas all day every day and I've sold about 3 sets of bushings in 5 years.

Hey, like I said. It's all in what a person deems "normal". I deem any bushing needing replaced before 200K not normal. $50 oil changes is extreme to me. It's all in the expectations.

Bobzilla wrote: ^ Generalize much? I've replaced a t-belt and brakes in 105k miles on the former auto-x'er (talk about fun for the $$) and thanks to previous owners who thought trans fluid changes were unneccessary in 120k miles a trans and tires on the wifes beater hyundai wit h164k miles. Neither has required a single suspension arm or bushing to be replaced. Granted hers is a pig in the fun to drive factor, I bet I have less invested in total money in BOTH cars as what the entry fee for the 7 is. 7 qts of $5 M1 and $10 filter is still more than my 4 qts of $5 M1 and a $4 filter. In fact, according to my calculator it's almost half. I see upscale hondas all day every day and I've sold about 3 sets of bushings in 5 years. Hey, like I said. It's all in what a person deems "normal". I deem any bushing needing replaced before 200K not normal. $50 oil changes is extreme to me. It's all in the expectations.

"Needing" to be replaced, and seeing a marked improvement when they're replaced are two different things. Bushings obviously last longer or shorter depending on how the car is treated.

Larger motors typically have a higher capacity for oil. It comes with the territory. I would honestly LOVE to have the money to shell out for a Moroso oil pan for my car, so i can have the capability to hold more than 4.25 quarts for my 2.2 litre motor.

Personally? I would deem any rubber "moving" part on an automobile lasting 200k as NOT normal.

But again, that's what i'm used to. Every Honda that i've been in recently over 100k miles DESPERATELY could use some suspension freshening, and if i'm down there anyways, it's time for some new bushings.

I didn't think my Celica needed new bushings.... they LOOKED fine, it felt ok to me driving it, but i went ahead and replaced them, and it was a night and day difference. I'm not good with just "OK."

Bobzilla: Once again, you are missing the point entirely. The reason you haven't seen many people put bushings on hyundais and hondas is that they are transportation appliances, and 95% of their drivers do not give a berkeley how the car handles anyway. The suspension parts are designed with a bias for comfort and maximum service life, not performance. Not to mention that with the hyundais, the rest of the car is usually off to scrap by the time a bushing replacement would be necessary.

I put either Mobil 1 or Castrol Syntec (whichever's on sale) in my 328 and my Miata. Filters for either car cost me about $6-7. The 328 takes 7 quarts, but that helps in a few ways. It keeps oil temps and pressures more stable, and it allows LONGER CHANGE INTERVALS. I put 4 quarts in the Miata every 3-5k miles. I put 7 quarts in the 328 every 7-10k miles. By my math, the BMW is cheaper to keep lubricated than my low-maintenance Japanese car :).

BTW, if you are counting the mentions of "control arm replacements" against these cars, this is partly due to the fact that it ends up being cheaper/easier to replace the front control arm as a unit rather than replace the individual ball joints. It's just a peculiarity of BMW parts pricing, not a sign that the front control arms break all the time. The rear control arms are actually designed to bend in accidents to protect the differential and subframe from damage, so these do get bent sometimes over the course of 10+ years of use. They are cheap and easy to replace by intention, and aftermarket units that are more durable and incorporate camber adjustability are very common for cars that see track use.

I will grant you that BMWs make terrible beaters. By all means, if you want a total beater do not buy one, because you will not get much of the potential enjoyment that comes with driving one. Buy one if you want a solid, well designed platform that will drive as great 10 years from now as it does today as long as you pay attention to a few critical wear items. The car is not designed to be a maintenance free disposable automotive appliance, and there are very few in this crowd that see this as remotely a strike against it.

I've been nice. But the generalities are hilarious. "Most of the car is ready for teh scrap yard before the bushings need replaced".. C'mon. pull your head from that dark smelly hole you call your anus and welcome to reality. Come talk to me when you buy your BMW new, auto-x it for 2 seasons, DD and get 35mpg and have a total expense of $15k wrapped up in it. Wanna talk about driver enjoyment? My first auto-x on my new suspension I smoked a 325i. That's enjoyment.

BMW's are more expensive to maintain PERIOD. That's expected. The question then becomes is it worth the extra cost in driving satisfaction/ownership. For me it's laughable when I cna build a better car for less. It just doesn't have "the name". I personally consider Grassroots to be a non-name brand shopper's category. I guess I was wrong.

The BMW leg-humping is thick in here. Am I at Car & Driver?

I've beaten 911s around an autocross course with my Miata, but I'm not silly enough to think that says anything about Porsche as a manufacturer.

Who the hell buys new when they want to get the most for their dollar anyway? That's pretty fundamental knowledge. My point is that if you are buying used, a $5000 BMW with $1-2000 put into deferred maintenance and minor upgrades is likely to be more rewarding than anything you can get for $6-7000 and no money for updates.

But hey, you're right. These things are flaming piles of crap. The thousands of people showing up at tracks and autocross events in them every weekend are primarily status seeking, brand obsessed idiots. Enjoy your Hyundais and their endless variety of top quality aftermarket performance options, and the vast combined knowledge base of all 12 people on the planet attempting to race one.

BTW, I have high expectations of the new Genesis R-spec and I will test drive one as soon as I can. Who cares what the badge on the hood of ANYTHING looks like. How it works is what matters.

I can make the generalization.. I went from a hyundai Tiburon to my 318ti...

my hyundai was not maintance free.. 3 wheel bearings, both tie rods, siezed rear caliper pins, transmission, Ball joints, plus all the usual maintance items like timing belts, fan belts, and the like in 130,000 miles...

the TI needed more when I got it at 100,000, but had been an abused car... but was still (and is) on it's original transmission, wheel bearings, and tierods.. I replaced all the rest when I updated the suspension.

Honestly, the price of the parts is no worse.. and the BMW is easier to work on

Bobzilla wrote: I've been nice. But the generalities are hilarious. "Most of the car is ready for teh scrap yard before the bushings need replaced".. C'mon. pull your head from that dark smelly hole you call your anus and welcome to reality. Come talk to me when you buy your BMW new, auto-x it for 2 seasons, DD and get 35mpg and have a total expense of $15k wrapped up in it. Wanna talk about driver enjoyment? My first auto-x on my new suspension I smoked a 325i. That's enjoyment.

This is a Motorsports board though..... if i'm going to autox it, i don't care.

The question that I PERSONALLY want to know.... which is a cooler car? Which would i rather drive? Which is more fulfilling to beat on? Which is FASTER?

The $15k Elantra?

Or the $15k E36 M3?

I'd rather my $600 Celica over the Elantra. Yeah... i more than that in it now, but less than a 3rd of your Elantra. Yeah, it doesn't get 35mpg, but the 33mpg that i DO get should keep me covered for quite some time while you use that extra 2mpg to try to eat up the $10k that i'm already ahead of you in. Parts are INSANELY cheap for this car (junkyard runs to strip camrys!), it's stupidly reliable, and has the capability to take out your Hyundai on any autox course. Will it with me driving? HELL NO. But the capability is there. (DISCLAIMER: I do NOT condone bench racing.)

It's not NEW, though, and i prefer it that way. More likely i'll get my money back out of it. We can use the "my car is cheaper to do this and that, so it's better" all day. But that doesn't REALLY mean any of them are better.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to make a personal attack, i think that you autocross your Hyundai is AWESOME . But there's gotta be a reason you built a Swift GT, right?

Define "cooler"? Driving a "me too" german mobile to fill the missing status in your life? That's not how I define "cool". I define cool as doing somethign different. Something new and not following the footsteps of every other tom, dick and harry. I carry 4 people in decent comfort, have ice cold ac, nice stereo and comfy seats on a soft enough suspension that I can handle 12 hour stints and not break the back.

Why did I build the Swift? Because a double duty auto-x and family mobile has too many compromises. It's too heavy for the class I'm in and well, c'mon.... how cool is a metro with a DOHC 4-cyl and 4-wheel discs?