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Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 4:10 p.m.
wbjones wrote:

so … the first time he road the bike in competition … did anyone claim it from him ?

that would have been funny

Since I wasn't the person posting that, I can't say. But one very important rule in the claiming process is.

You must actually qualify and ride a legitimate entry in the race and class whose owner's bike you want to claim. In fact they probably got their rules from horse racing where they have claiming races. And any other owner in horse claiming race can claim another horse in that claiming race at a preset and published price in dollars. People can't just walk in off the street and claim your ride. They must be a legitimate competitor just as they generally are in protest situations.

In the AMA series I raced in we knew ahead of time, all races were claiming races. I would think Spec Miata or any similar series would be set up the same way.

Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 6:58 p.m.

Mea Culpa! Sorry when talking about AMA claiming rules I used the wrong term. In AMA when I was there the hottest class was Expert, not Pro. We were all pros but the classes were Novice with a green plate, Amateur with a yellow plate, and Expert with a white plate. Not Pro, we were all Pros. And we all received money based on how we placed in the event at our level.

I never got past the Amateur class because I had issues with the one mile flat track races. At the Indy Mile and a few other mile oval races, I often raised up before many of my competitors. Since by rule, none of us were allowed to have brakes, the one who raised up first, typically me, were among the lowest placed finishers on the one mile dirt track races.

So by rule, I could never have claimed an Expert's bike. Because I never scored high enough year to year as an "Amateur" to race in the Expert Class! Which is exactly how I suggest Claiming Rules should be instituted in the SCCA spec racer format. If you don't race there, you can't claim there.

iadr
iadr HalfDork
2/26/15 5:09 a.m.

This is why I like the Engine Masters dyno competition. Innovation, no drivers. Both essential to have me interested in any form of competition.
I see no interest at all into comparing one driver to another, only, solely, in the technical aspects, so in that view claiming and zero tolerance make me less interested, not more.
And I'm with Hess on the other thing. If you have a group destroying your country..well... I'll stop there.

rcutclif
rcutclif HalfDork
2/26/15 11:32 a.m.

Just remember, the USA was founded by a bunch of people who 'cheat' at war.

Racing in my book is trying to win, and using any and all methods is fair game. Now, like Nohome said, the biggest game is all of life. If you choose to flagrantly cheat and dishonestly show your car's preparation, you will lose else where and that is your decision. Racing is a small world. You may also not get much gratification from winning the race, but again, its your decision. Cheating is also a spectrum, and WE ALL fall at a different location on that spectrum.

I think cheating is a huge benefit to racing because it does 3 things.

  1. creates creative new solutions to problems that we can all learn from and use go faster (chapparal anybody?).
  2. pushes sanctioning bodies to not only develop better rule-sets, but also to better enforce them.
  3. gives the losing, non-innovating, following, complainy-pants racers a good way to save their self-esteem. (I fall mostly in this camp, BTW)

If you want to race someone truly fairly, ask them to co-drive your car at any event. Past that, it is never going to be 'fair' and I accept that.

And before everyone jumps down my throat - what exactly is the difference between 'the rules say you can' (source of innovation) and 'you did not understand the rules correctly' (source of cheating).

ronbros
ronbros Reader
3/3/15 2:48 p.m.

no one mentioned,one of big time cheating in modern Indy 500 race. 1994 the Penske engine,that totally shocked the racing world, built to the letter of the rule book.

V8 2 valve,push rod engine,turbo, all others were runnin V8 4 cam,4 valve turbo engines.

it was built in secret, and it developed over 150HP more than the other engines, and it was simply BANNED before the race was over, never to be seen again! it won the indy 500 1994.

even the super/rich like the excitement of cheating(or just out thinking the competion). who cares if it was banned,it shows how silly a rule book can be in the hands of exceptional people!

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/2/18 11:18 a.m.

His is all really, really sinple folks. Rules make things black and white. White is pure, devoid of black. Anything that adds black to the the white (aka “grey areas”) is a sin against the law of purity. If you have rules at all, they must be strictly enforced. If you allow “grey areas” (a word I don’t believe in) then you must allow anything and everything. No rules. Which I’m also fine with. 

I’ve long said more racing series need to allow “anything goes” and then watch the wildfire of commercial dollars grow. Prime example: http://www.amb-aero.com/hks-gts800-and-infinity-wings/

WTA allows almost anything, AND it’s growing. 

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
1/2/18 11:57 a.m.
HiTempguy said:
mad_machine wrote: so if everyone is cheating... why should I stick to the rules and constantly come in last (or back of the pack)? We know the "right" and moral answer to that question, but it still stands.

This is why I hate it when people go "I don't like zero tolerance policies".

At what point do you sacrifice your values/beliefs/morals? This is not just limited to racing, but is a LIFE question.

Zero tolerance means you no longer have to think or use intelligence and it usually ends up only harming those unintentionally caught in the "my hands are tied" school of punishment. It usually proves wrong those who say "if you have nothing to hide/did nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." At what point do you sacrifice your ability for rational thought and nuance?

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed SuperDork
1/2/18 2:05 p.m.

Nice article but I couldn't stop staring at those two E30s in the foreground of the picture. So sweet.

icaneat50eggs
icaneat50eggs Dork
1/2/18 2:46 p.m.

Some cheating is very black and white.  Some is very very gray.   Racers are cute little amateurs when it comes to cheating.  Mainly because even at the highest level there isn't enough money to justify really interesting cheating.

You want to see real cheating?  go into the business world.  The latest OSHA rule set I was handed had 50 pages of the law passed by congress.  This would be your standard rulebook.

Then it had 550 pages of interpretation on how to correctly apply and interpret the rulebook.  

When literally billions of dollars are on the line you can get a very wide range of legitimate opinions on what even the best written rules say. 

HapDL
HapDL New Reader
1/2/18 5:09 p.m.

The rules in the series I used to run in said "if does not explicitly say you can do something then you cannot do it."  And also, "If you have to ask, the answer is you cannot do it".  Penalty was loss of all series points and finishes.  So when people got caught with anything not allowed in writing they were screwed.  When they started enforcing this and tore down a few cars resulting in a few cheaters getting seriously dinged cheating became less of an issue.  Kind of eliminated the "reading between the lines"crap and it actually made it easy to prep a car since everything you could do was already laid out clearly.  Without this kind of serious enforcement spec series are just a joke.

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
1/2/18 5:47 p.m.

In reply to ronbros :

That engine was allowed a sizable increase in displacement.   One reason Penske did it.

GTXVette
GTXVette Dork
1/2/18 7:51 p.m.

 

Hello Every one,  My name is John,  And I'm A Cheater .  I didn't start out This way, It Took Awhile,  At First It was Just a Little, Only enuff to stay on the Same Lap as the Leaders,  Then when I made Top 10, I knew I could get up front ,I just needed a little more of that Stuff ,   the Go Fast Stuff . I can't afford it but I can Pay next week when I finish First, 

I knew I was cheating but just couldn't stop.

   Winning Is addictive

Only cheaters Win,  Only winners Cheat.   

I'm In Recovery now,  I Promise not to do anything,

that is , unless the winners are doing it. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
1/2/18 7:57 p.m.

I feel like I missed something. It seemed back a ways in this Cheaters thread that Voter ID Laws were somehow racist? What?

GTXVette
GTXVette Dork
1/2/18 8:23 p.m.

 that part of the thread should go away,  I mean you need a License to Drive  ,  Hunt  ,  Fish. Seems like you should have a License to Vote. Plus there would be 10 million votes LESS To Count.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
1/2/18 8:41 p.m.

In reply to GTXVette :

Agreed. I must have read it wrong. It appeared at first that guys were replying that if you favored voter Id’s, you must be a racist. 

Moving on...

nutherjrfan
nutherjrfan Dork
1/2/18 10:07 p.m.

Tin cups. angel

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/3/18 12:39 p.m.

You guys are crazy. There is NO grey area. Ever. Either you are cheating or you are not. Black or white, yes or no. The world is based on the probability of 50%!

racerdave600
racerdave600 UltraDork
1/3/18 12:45 p.m.

Back when we ran Nascar, they would lay out on a table some of the items taken off cars that did not match the rule books.  Some of it was pretty ingenious.  Of course Nascar itself did some forms of cheating.  It was basically a way of life for those involved.  Everyone knew who got the "breaks" and waited for it to be there turn.  

Nader
Nader New Reader
1/3/18 1:19 p.m.

Huh.  I raced a Spec Miata from '03-'06.  Used a reasonably healthy $500 junkyard engine and always had mediocre results.  I realized it wasn't just me when during one race, when I thought I was by myself three-quarters down a long straight, ostensibly at terminal speed, a fast guy showed up out of nowhere, bumped me for fun, and passed me like I was standing still.  Eventually I sold the car, moved on to vintage with an Alfa Spider, and never looked back.  Looks like things haven't changed.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/3/18 1:34 p.m.

A better question is why this thread came back after a three year submission into history.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
1/3/18 2:48 p.m.
alfadriver said:

A better question is why this thread came back after a three year submission into history.

Is that like the “Zombie Thread” comments I’ve seen so often?

Ill never understand why it matters one bit how old a thread might be and that it got reopened. The subject obviously became relevant again to someone. 

Whats next? “Civil War? That was like in the 1860’s for Gods’ sake! Zombie Thread Alert!”

nutherjrfan
nutherjrfan SuperDork
1/3/18 5:57 p.m.

We've all been a little flame happy lately.  Coming from a tetchy oldish guy. wink  When it comes to NASCAR I could care less.  If every race ended like the Ricky Craven/Kurt Busch Darlington race of yore I'd be a happy viewer. cool

 

Harvey
Harvey Dork
1/4/18 1:03 p.m.

What if you just had a race event where all cheating was legal as long as no one can figure out how you're cheating. You don't remove cheaters if they are found out, you deduct from their score (time, points, whatever is the scoring method) when someone figures out what the cheat actually is and the deduction depends on what type of cheat it is, but if the event finishes and no one has discovered the cheat then you're free and clear!

The "I'm Totally Not Cheating 500" or possibly "The Tour de France".

The best part would be the people that don't cheat at all and still win. "The Paranoia Grand Prix"

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/4/18 2:46 p.m.

In reply to Harvey :

That would be rad. It would be cool too if, once said cheat was found, it became a legal thing so everyone can do it. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/4/18 2:50 p.m.
ebonyandivory said:
alfadriver said:

A better question is why this thread came back after a three year submission into history.

Is that like the “Zombie Thread” comments I’ve seen so often?

Ill never understand why it matters one bit how old a thread might be and that it got reopened. The subject obviously became relevant again to someone. 

Whats next? “Civil War? That was like in the 1860’s for Gods’ sake! Zombie Thread Alert!”

Sometimes the threads come back due to spammers- which happens a lot more often that someone comes up with a new issue.  And most of the time someone has a new issue, they explain the new issue.  

In this case, what's the new issue?  How did it become relevant after a 3 year hiatus?

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