Ice in engine help...

Ok. I did something really silly and I'll admit to it. I need guidance as to the easiest way to fix it.....

Back story goes like this.... I have a hair line crack in the top tank of my honda radiator. I've been nursing it along by filling the system w/ water for awhile. Well, it got in the 20's last night and I forgot to add more antifreeze to the mix.

I start the car this am, and I hear a horrible grinding noise that sounds like ice in an ice maker. It stops after a few seconds and then idles and runs like normal. I pop the hood and find that my top rad hose is completely frozen inside. There seems to be some fluid in the radiator so I let it run for a few more seconds and then shut the car off. As I'm checking to see if there is any visible damge or leaks, I hear water pouring on the ground. It seems to be coming from the timing belt area but I couldnt see exactly where it was coming from. Mr Google says that Honda used threaded freeze plugs in this engine( 2001 accord - 4cyl 2.3L ) so I gonna assume its not that until I know for certain. So... I've got two questions. One, how likely is it that the water pump sprung a leak from the ice and how hard is the replacement on this car?

Two, are there any other areas that I need to look at for possible issues in the future?

How do Northerners handle ice in an engine? I'm kicking myself for not checking the antifreeze or even patching the rad until I could replace it. I've got a volvo thats been parked for over a year, but other than that we're down to one vehicle now until I resolve this. I also dont have a garage so any work done will be outside in the ice we're supposed to get tonight.

Where do I go from here?

Stick a heater under the front of the car. A flood light or quartz light would also do the trick.

Damn...that sucks right there. I would assume the 'ice in the blender' noise was pretty much exactly what was happening with the waterpump.

That's an interference engine, and I wouldn't recommend starting it until you get the timing cover off and see what's going on. Go ahead an plan on a timing belt service while you're in there.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Doing a timing belt in freezing rain on a car I needed to use to get to work would fall under "worth paying someone else to do."

You probably have 4-5 days worth of rental car expense before hitting a break-even on the savings of doing the job yourself if you want to wait for the weather to break.

Failing all of that, makeshift shelter with some heat and light source. You'll probably have to pull the passenger motor mount and maybe get the PS pump out of your way, IIRC. Used to have a 98 Accord, but it's been a long time. If you can get a big tarp and make some skirts with bricks, it will keep the wind out and keep the 'heat' underneath.

Good luck. Not much sucks worth than trying to turn 10mm bolts with frozen hotdogs for fingers.

@Toyman -- The light should take several hours to thaw up the ice, correct? Have u ever seen a water pump leak from being frozen?

I'm gonna venture a guess that the water pump housing is probably cracked if you had water pouring out of the timing cover.

JohnyHachi6 wrote: I'm gonna venture a guess that the water pump housing is probably cracked if you had water pouring out of the timing cover.

This, first thing I thought.

As much as I would like to, I can't send this one to the shop. I know that the belt isnt broken, but I cant say that its not stretched.

So. I should consider changing the belt, tensioner and pump? Will I need air tools to break any bolts loose? I've heard that some of the bolts involved in the belt change are torqued to something crazy, like 500ft-lbs?

I'm researching the change now......

GameboyRMH wrote:

JohnyHachi6 wrote: I'm gonna venture a guess that the water pump housing is probably cracked if you had water pouring out of the timing cover.

This, first thing I thought.

I hope its that simple. I'll try and get under the car this afternoon. They're calling for ice in my area and my wife has already called to remind me to leave early.

I think I'll start the volvo while I'm outside as well...

do not start the engine again.
if there's that big of leak under the timing cover, there's a major issue. probably cracked pump as others have said. starting it again runs the risk of the timing belt skipping on breaking and causing valve train destruction. Take it apart, see what you've got. There's no way around it. If you're extremely lucky, all you'll need is a timing belt/wp/t-stat. (and a radiator) If less lucky, the expanding ice could have cracked the block, head, or both. Only way to know is to take apart the cover, repair whats obviously broken, and run it.

@TGMF -- Thanks for the info. I agree w/ everyone on not starting it again until I replace / check out the area. My goal is to do that when I get home from work.

Open the drains YESTERDAY, rad and block drain(s), thaw it out, get the timing cover off and see what you can find. It's mostly if not all water so just let it drain on the ground if you don't have a pan handy. Agreed on T belt job before turning the engine over again.

For future reference to everybody. QUIT PUTTING WATER IN YOU DAMN RADIATOR. Last I checked cheap generic "all makes all models"/"universal"/"mixes with everything" (it's all the same stuff) 50/50 antifreeze is less than $10 a gallon, maybe a dollar or two more for straight. It does a lot more than protect from freezing too. Hydrometers are like a dollar. There's not much of an excuse for letting this happen.

In reply to mrwillie:

Rent borrow or buy the largest fan forced heater you can, if not for the car ,for you. Suxxors, I feel for you.

Exactly how little coolant was in there? Little enough that you can just pour in some tequila and margarita mix?

Lemons into lemonade, etc.

Also, us northerners don't experience frozen engines because we don't put straight water in the radiators of street-driven cars ;)

When you pull off the timing cover, take out the plugs and turn the engine over twice by hand (wrench on the crankshaft pulley) and feel for any resistance. Line it up at TDC and see if the cam pulley is still in the right spot. If this is all good, it's just an early timing belt service.

You'll need to get the crankshaft pulley off. This is a bonafide beeotch of a driveway job if you don't have a Big Damn Impact Wrench. There is a special service tool to help hold the crankshaft in place, but I'll wager a BDIW will zip it off nicely.

Tyler H wrote: When you pull off the timing cover, take out the plugs and turn the engine over twice by hand (wrench on the crankshaft pulley) and feel for any resistance. Line it up at TDC and see if the cam pulley is still in the right spot. If this is all good, it's just an early timing belt service. You'll need to get the crankshaft pulley off. This is a bonafide beeotch of a driveway job if you don't have a Big Damn Impact Wrench. There is a special service tool to help hold the crankshaft in place, but I'll wager a BDIW will zip it off nicely.

If you need to hold the crank steady while breaking the crank bolt loose, just thread a foot or so of rope into the cylinder via the plug hole and turn gently until the thing stops turning.

as others have said don't run but do go get a gallon or two of RV anti-freeze and pour that in to the rad and let it flow out what ever crack there is while you heat the rest with lamps etc. this will keep the damage to a min and its non toxic. The main ingredient is propylene glycol the same stuff they put in ice cream to keep it from forming ice crystal and same stuff that make E-Cig smoke.... Yes thanks to E-cigs the price has gone way up...

Rope trick will work, but would make me nervous. If to much rope was in there and you end up pushing against a slightly open valve you could bend the valve. I would try to find a crank pully hold tool. Alternat options- is the car a manual? If so out it in gear, jam the brake pedal on and try to break crank pully free. -If auto there should be a inspection cover to access the flexplate. Use a prybar in one of the holes to jam engine. - If the crankpully has some treaded holes (many do to install a crank pully puller) try putting two very hard bolts in those and use a prybar to hold the crank in place.keep bolts as short as will work to avoid unwanted leverage against them. Do not break the bolts off! If it looks like they are going to break before the pully bolt breaks free, stop. As you'll need to use these to install a pully puller if the pully is stuck on the crank after the bolt is removed. Again, I'd do my best to get the correct tool for the job. Even if you've got to buy one.

Good idea on the RV antifreeze.

For holding the engine, the rope trick works, you just have to ensure you put it in the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke (valves shut). You can pop the valve cover off (it's probably due for a valve adjustment and cover gasket anyhow) and check that the valves are all up. Rolling it over by hand in this condition to observe is fine, just don't force anything, it should spin pretty easy with the plugs out.

I've had plenty of success (on not Hondas, never done one) by putting it in 4th gear and having a friend stand on the brakes. Or holding the ring gear with a prybar through an inspection port. I usually reserve the rope trick for lawnmowers, but it will work on a car.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Open the drains YESTERDAY, rad and block drain(s), thaw it out, get the timing cover off and see what you can find. It's mostly if not all water so just let it drain on the ground if you don't have a pan handy. Agreed on T belt job before turning the engine over again. For future reference to everybody. QUIT PUTTING WATER IN YOU DAMN RADIATOR. Last I checked cheap generic "all makes all models"/"universal"/"mixes with everything" (it's all the same stuff) 50/50 antifreeze is less than $10 a gallon, maybe a dollar or two more for straight. It does a lot more than protect from freezing too. Hydrometers are like a dollar. There's not much of an excuse for letting this happen.

does this stuff mix with Dex-Cool ?

In reply to wbjones:

It's basically improved dex cool(similar chemistry), so it should. That is of course, assuming a sane drain-fill interval. It's been around long enough now I think any problems would have surfaced. I used it without trouble for years, though my current DD gets peak global lifetime, that's just to cut down on time spent working on it.

Rope trick in Cylinder #1 coming up to TDC both valves are closed and stay closed so it should not be an issue. Make sure youd o this with the T belt still on. Then back up the motor by hand and remove the rope and put the motor at TDC on #1 and proceed as per the manual.

mrwillie wrote: How do Northerners handle ice in an engine?

it might not be the "proper" way to deal with it, way back when i had a 79 Mustang that froze solid on a -25 degree night when i only had a mix good for somewhere north of 0 degrees, i pulled the radiator out and brought it into my apartment, where i soaked it in hot water in the bathtub until it thawed... then i put it back in the car, and filled it with a really strong mix of antifreeze (i dumped it in straight, then topped off with water, so probably about 80% antifreeze).. then i started the car and let it build up some heat- enough to peg the temp gauge, and shut it off for a half hour or so... i did this a couple of times, until the water started flowing thru the heater core.. i got lucky: no damage at all... those 2.3's must be pretty close to indestructible.. i don't know what kind of a mix i wound up with since i didn't have a tester at that time, but it didn't freeze up again..

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to wbjones: It's basically improved dex cool(similar chemistry), so it should. That is of course, assuming a sane drain-fill interval. It's been around long enough now I think any problems would have surfaced. I used it without trouble for years, though my current DD gets peak global lifetime, that's just to cut down on time spent working on it.

glad you got away with that …one thing to be careful about is TOO much anti-freeze v. water … this link does a pretty good job of detailing the proper mixes and their purposes

http://www.marinemechanic.com/site/page39.html

I had a friend overheat and refill a chevy 350 in his old impala. Overnight it froze solid. Knowing this, I pulled the belt off of the waterpump and started the car and let it idle with the radiator cap off..

All was well except for a popped "freeze plug" that was near impossible to get at due to the chassis. Any other one would have been easy