Winter is coming, we're preparing to move to Spokane in Januuary (where it is much more snowy than here) and -- for that reason -- I need something for commuting other than my motorbikes or our Forester (that I leave for Mrs. Dustoff to haul the boy and dog around). There are a few pretty decent 4wd Civic Wagons in the area and, although I have enjoyed them from afar, I have never really gotten to know them (or any of their Honda brethren for that matter). So, what should I know before truly considering one? What is the worst thing about this car? What is the best? What's in between? I hope to modify it some, but nothing crazy as it will be my DD for the foreseeable future. Thanks in advance...
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Nov. 6, 2011 6:00 p.m. DustoffDave Reader
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Nov. 6, 2011 6:53 p.m. coll9947 Reader
Finding a rust free example seems to be the biggest challenge. The drivetrain can't take huge amounts of power. My Honda buddy built a high compression N/A AWD wagon and it's loads of fun. Just enough power to surprise, not enough to break things.
Wagon Attack <- makes me want one badly.
However it might be easier to find an AWD CRV in purchase-worthy condition if you don't mind owning a CRV.
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Nov. 6, 2011 6:59 p.m. jrw1621 SuperDork
You have linked wagon Attack 1 but the better is Wagon Attack 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ZzqBPz4sY&feature=relmfu -
Nov. 6, 2011 7:53 p.m. DustoffDave Reader
Yeah, I saw those a few minutes ago. Pretty cool. Is there any way to beef up the drive train to be able to handle more powah?
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Nov. 6, 2011 8:20 p.m. littleturquoiseb HalfDork
We (Misfit Toys Racing) successfully Lemons'ed one last season.
Hotlink'd so I don't face the ban. Sonic on the boards here built it and is currently hopping it up ... I'm sure he can chime in!!
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Nov. 6, 2011 8:50 p.m. Sonic Dork
I'll echo what was said above. They are great cars, but rust is the biggest enemy. Most of these were sold in snowy areas with lots of road salt, and used in the worst of the weather, and they are rusting.
the 4WD system isn't ever going to hold a lot of power, especially if you decide to start doing hard launches. Our Lemons car has a D16y8 swap for a few extra HP, but it is getting turbocharged, and will probably be 160-170hp, which will be pushing the limits of reliability.
Mechanically, they are very robust and long lived at stock power levels. There are a bunch of 4WD specific parts, and many of them are NLA from Honda, sadly. They are never going to be really fast, and don't get great gas mileage due to the weight/friction penalty of the 4WD system. They do rock in the snow, though, and hold tons of stuff.
For mods, it is the same D16A6 as in the 88-91 CRX Si, so all of the same mods work. For suspension, it uses the same design as the Civic hatch, but with taller springs, and slightly redesigned shocks. We run CIvic Si Konis and Ground Controls.
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Nov. 6, 2011 9:21 p.m. DustoffDave Reader
OK, so here's the question: Impreza Wagon, or one of these?
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Nov. 6, 2011 10:47 p.m. littleturquoiseb HalfDork
Do you want an ultra rare, very old, totally rusty, slow, full of unubtanium, but really freakin' cool Honda ....
Or the tried and true, pass the plow, will run forever as long as you get the 2.2 not the 2.5, but every soccer mom has one impreza?
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Nov. 6, 2011 11:56 p.m. DustoffDave Reader
Well, I've had 5 Subarus and they've all been fantastic. Heck, I used to work for Subaru. But, there's is still that something about the civic that speaks to me. It's like the Impreza wagon is the reasonably attractive girl-who-is-a-friend that you know you could take it to the next step if you wanted to, but there's no pressure. And the Civic wagon is the super-hot chick with a lot of baggage -- you know it could be really fun for awhile, but you're not sure if it's worth the risk.
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Nov. 7, 2011 12:55 a.m. ValuePack Dork
I had a baby blue '91 years ago, and never would've gotten rid of it if I hadn't wrapped it around a tree playing rally driver on a gravel road.
Everyone should own one at least once. It's been a decade, and I still desperately miss mine.
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Nov. 7, 2011 2:38 a.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork
It is kind of a goofy car. Very homely and not much fun to drive in my experience. Wagon Attack makes them look cooler than they really are. I think an Impreza would offer better driving dynamics and look cooler as well.
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Nov. 7, 2011 6:33 a.m. Duke SuperDork
Also, remember that only 15% of the power or so makes it to the rear wheels. Impreza offers better power delivery.
They are still cool, though.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:20 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
In reply to DustoffDave:
I've owned two and my Dad one, all '88-'91's. In a few days I will be posting pictures of the rust repair work I am doing on his. Of course there's the obvious quarter panel rust, but it's the stuff you can't see you really need to be concerned about. The rocker panels have plastic covers over them. You need to know what the metal is like behind them, and they are really easy to remove. Check the tightness of the rear bumper cover. If there is any looseness, then the bumper or the part of the car where the bumper attaches is rusted out. You can check the car by removing the rear inside trim panel and looking up from underneath the car. Probably the most important part to check is the rear crossmember that the diff attaches to. They are known to rust out and that is a big problem. Just keep in mind that any sheetmetal part that is unique to the wagon is not repro'd. I'm spending huge amounts of time fabricating patch panels for my Dad's car. Mechanically, it's not much different than a Civic. It has the civic si engine in it (2WD's get a 1.5). The AWD system is pretty reliable, and if it has the 6 speed trans, they are really fun to drive.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:23 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
Duke wrote:
Also, remember that only 15% of the power or so makes it to the rear wheels. Impreza offers better power delivery.
They are still cool, though.
That may be true, idunno, but the way the AWD system works, I'm not sure about that. There is basically a viscous coupler in the rear driveshaft. When the fronts spin faster than the rears, the rear kicks in. How much power goes there depends on how much is needed to make all the wheels spin at the same speed. I do know this - It's enough to do long, long, long power sllides in the snow.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:26 a.m. nocones HalfDork
I realize it's supper far away but there is a Manual AWD Cr-V at a local dealer that I could check out for a board member. It seems a bit pricey at 8K but looks to be in good shape. I realize this helps you not for a civic Wagon but it made me think of it.
http://www.rickridings.com/inventory/details/Used-2001-Honda-CR-V-4WD-EX-Manual/?v...
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:30 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
In reply to nocones:
I have a second gen CR-V now. In spirit it is an updated version of the Civic AWD wagon, obviously nicer. But I don't think the AWD system works as well as the wagon. It allows quite a bit of front tire spin before engaging the rear. It's fine for getting traction in the snow, but I much prefer the system in the wagon. I prefer the CR-V overall.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:34 a.m. Duke SuperDork
bravenrace wrote:
Duke wrote:
Also, remember that only 15% of the power or so makes it to the rear wheels. Impreza offers better power delivery.
They are still cool, though.
That may be true, idunno, but the way the AWD system works, I'm not sure about that.
I was told that by a guy who built a turbo Civic hatch using the AWD wagon driveline. I could be wrong.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:52 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
In reply to Duke:
You could be right, too. Trying to get traction in an AWD turbo Civic (something I always wanted to build, BTW), is a little different then trying to get traction in the snow with a stock wagon. I suppose the viscous coupler has limitations and at some point will slip excessively, but I never had that happen with mine in any situation.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:52 a.m. pinchvalve SuperDork
DustoffDave wrote: the Civic wagon is the super-hot chick with a lot of baggage -- you know it could be really fun for awhile, but you're not sure if it's worth the risk.
You think the Civic will be all hotness...
But it will wind up strung out and in court.
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Nov. 7, 2011 8:53 a.m. bravenrace SuperDork
In reply to pinchvalve:
Sad. So sad.
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Nov. 7, 2011 10:30 a.m. DustoffDave Reader
So, as intriguing as it may seem to go with the Civic, based on what I'm reading above I will probably end up with some Impreza wagon...
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Nov. 7, 2011 11:42 a.m. poopshovel SuperDork
littleturquoiseb wrote:
Do you want an ultra rare, very old, totally rusty, slow, full of unubtanium, but really freakin' cool Honda ....
Or the tried and true, pass the plow, will run forever as long as you get the 2.2 not the 2.5, but every soccer mom has one impreza?
OR - if you can comfortably afford the impreza, you can probably afford both.
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Nov. 7, 2011 12:30 p.m. oldeskewltoy HalfDork
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Nov. 7, 2011 1:00 p.m. DustoffDave Reader
oldeskewltoy wrote:
You're not helping things any...
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Nov. 7, 2011 6:25 p.m. White_and_Nerdy HalfDork
I absolutely loved both of my Civic wagons - first my free 91 FWD, and then my 89 RT4WD. The 89 was an automatic, which was the biggest downside, but the car was still super awesome. Naturally, it was the tranny that eventually went out on me, and I dumped the car rather than try to find an unobtainium replacement. Manual swap, you say? The manual RT4WD trans mounts differently than the auto, and cutting and welding is required in the conversion. Sad. But with four studded snow tires, driving that thing on ice was like driving on gravel. With fog lights and fake Mini Cooper S hood stripes, it was a dorky looking rally car in the slippery stuff.
But, Subarus are easy to get parts for, absolutely.
