Interest in Miata-based kit cars?

Why not a 7 using the Miata subframes? The packaging at the front is wrong. The rear subframe's been used a few times and works reasonably well. But the nose of a 7 chassis is much narrower than that of a Miata, and you end up with a very stubby nose. Hard to make it look good.

Exhibit A: MEV Exocet. it's exactly what's being described, a tube frame for the Miata drivetrain/subframes. Check out the proportions.

In terms of wheelbase, Sevens usually have a slightly longer wheelbase than Miata. If you push the front subframe forward and run some new motor mounts (easy to do), you can increase the Miata's wheelbase and move the driver back relative to the front wheels.

Oh, and my suggestion for a body? Don't go with something mundane like a 510. It's got to be exotic and pretty.

I'd go with a Jaguar C-type. Maybe a D, but I love the C.

Keith wrote: Why not a 7 using the Miata subframes? The packaging at the front is wrong. The rear subframe's been used a few times and works reasonably well. But the nose of a 7 chassis is much narrower than that of a Miata, and you end up with a very stubby nose. Hard to make it look good. In terms of wheelbase, Sevens usually have a slightly longer wheelbase than Miata. If you push the front subframe forward and run some new motor mounts (easy to do), you can increase the Miata's wheelbase and move the driver back relative to the front wheels.

thanks for illustrating that.

If you did stretch the wheelbase, that still is what he's looking for- the engine and trans are what connects to the rear subframe, right? They are only mounted into the front sub.

One still has to deal with a "subframe front" on a 7, though. Not impossible, but not graceful.

Besides the TZ, I thought the Giulietta/Giula Spiders would be neat.

I have to keep correcting myself that these were all that common- they were not. But few people dreamed of these like Cobras or 7's.

alfadriver wrote: thanks for illustrating that. If you did stretch the wheelbase, that still is what he's looking for- the engine and trans are what connects to the rear subframe, right? They are only mounted into the front sub. One still has to deal with a "subframe front" on a 7, though. Not impossible, but not graceful. Besides the TZ, I thought the Giulietta/Giula Spiders would be neat.

Agreed, I think. In my (perhaps overly) simplistic thinking, folks would start by taking a Miata down to "naked". Then, they take the front and rear subframes and bolt them into the kit chassis, which might or might not closely replicate the Miata wheelbase. As Keith suggested, slightly altering the position of the motor relative to the existing location might make sense and isn't terribly difficult.

As for something like a Spider, I agree with an earlier post that mentioned a coupe of some sort. I think that would be neat and might appeal to folks. The thought was that the Miata is already a convertible (albeit a girly one ) so some sort of coupe might have more appeal.

Heck, even a butch Miata coupe might work well.

alfadriver wrote: If you did stretch the wheelbase, that still is what he's looking for- the engine and trans are what connects to the rear subframe, right? They are only mounted into the front sub.

Correct. New motor mounts and you get a longer wheelbase like magic. Cut and splice the power plant frame (the big girder joining the trans and diff in the first nekkid Miata picture) along with a new driveshaft and you can shorten the wheelbase - or do both and you move the engine back.

My 2 cents from a manufacturing perspective. One of the really great things about the arial atom or (less so) the Caterham is that their engineering and tooling costs are comparatively low because they did not need to do much "surfacing" while designing in the puter. Having done a fair amount of creating complex surfaces for consumer products, and having also done a fair amount of weldments for capital equipment chassis roughly the same size and complexity as an automotive tube/box chassis (both in SolidWorks), being able to use stock materials and then bend, machine, and otherwise modify them, and then bond, rivet, weld, or screw the pieces together, is SO MUCH easier than trying to get a bunch of surfaces to make sense with each other and then fit over existing geometry (the Miata bits). Making bucks or molds for creating complex surfaces is very expensive in labor materials or both, and once you have made one, if it is wrong, you very likely need to start over to fix it. If you are working with stock materials, just chop another part and off you go. Making a Caterham ish shape would be 20x cheaper/faster/easier than making a Datsun 510 shape. An Arial atom tube chassis jobie with boat trailer fenders is 10X easier than the Caterham. The computer horsepower needed follows some sort of similar ratios as well. Any approach would be north of 7 figures to create/buy the jigs, tools, equipment, yada yada yada and ultimately and most importantly create and control all the documentation sufficient to make a second one.

nderwater wrote: Or even go the whole heritage angle and go with a fiberglass Elan body.

DING!

Although I'll admit that a lot on non-car people might not even notice.

As much as I'd love an easy to build C or D-type replica, if it doesn't have an inline 6, would it really be worth the effort? It would sort of be like the old 917 kits based on a Bug...

alfadriver wrote: I know the guy who has the molds for this body.

[jedi mind trick] you will tell me who [\jedi mind trick]

I'd go for a sports racer shape like a lotus 11 or similar

Here's another Alfa you can copy, one that Alfa copied of their own 1750, and called in a Quattrorutte. Probably still have porportion issues, but it would be an interesting replica of a replica.

There is a company in New Zealand that makes a MG TD-ish kit using the Miata as a single vehicle donor. I've seen it at the Carlisle Import/Kit Car show.

It doesn't look bad, but I don't think they have people beating their doors down for kits like the Cobra replica guys either.

Never been a big MG-TD fan. I would go more in the direction of either a racy looking coupe (like the aforementioned Alfa) or a sexy racer type (like the Jag from Keith or a Lotus 11-ish). At least from my perspective, these two would have more appeal (and track-ability) than a TD type.

I've always wanted to do something like this, but it comes down to enough volume to make money.

Died in the wool car guys have lots of options, so whatever it is has to be "fantastic" enough to keep them from the other options, but as a percentage of sales I don't know how much of the kit/replica market they make up (perhaps FFR has data, but would they share it?)

Second, it seems to me that whatever shape is settled upon must be unique enough that it's not easily found and known broadly beyond the car culture, because it expands your potential market, and said market segment probably generates enough sales to push profitability.

The bathtub Porches were well known, and especially Cobra's and street rods. Originals for all of those are not easily found, expensive beyond what most are willing to pay, and the base parts easily found (air cooled VW and Ford V8 parts), and everybody knows what they are, even if they couldn't pin down the exact year of any of them were produced.

The miata is probably an excellent mechanical starting point, and I'm sure others could be found, but beyond an XKE, I'm not sure there are too many sports cars that carry the recognition.

An Elan probably looks too much like a Miata to the casual observer, the Alfa is probably not unique enough to be known outside enthusiast circles. A 510 gets you closer, but then who besides a car nut wants one?

It's a tough nut to crack. I think the racing series helps market to car/racing types, and might boost sales a little bit, and too, it depends on the cost structure and sales price per unit, but I think there's a reason most successful replica manufacturers have been the three already mentioned.

Buzz kill, I know, but I really would love to see more variety in the market, especially for the small bore stuff that I have an affinity for.

No buzz kill. More honest feedback. And much appreciated. I agree with pretty much all of your points. The availability of top notch kit cars today has been reduced down to a pretty small number of suppliers as well as types of available cars. FF is a juggernaut in the space at this point and seems to be run quite well. Bathtub Porsches are up there too. Step beyond that and there is the general Locost category and the Atom-like (see Keith's post above) options.

I guess my point is that there aren't many real options out there. That can be viewed either as a fantastic marketplace to compete in or the world's worst idea to go off and attempt.

Another random idea of what to make it look like - how about an Elva Courier?

Not too sure how many people other than hardcore car guys would recognize it, but it does a good job of looking like what a '50s or '60s sports car should look like.

Or how about a Miata based track T?

Also keep in mind that almost every car built today uses the same suspension subframe set up as the Miata. The only difference in the Miata is that is uses the PPF. Does the RX8 use a PPF?

Well, for better or worse, your market research should be someplace other than here. We like odd, weird and otherwise generally unloved cars. In a way, you need to ask non-car people what they like. However, the problem there lies in a rather limited selection of potential designs that fit the design criteria of a Miata, since most non car people will be drawn to either V8 muscle cars or mid-engine exotics. Even the cars the Miata was based on (Elan, Spitfire, MGB) are pretty much gone from the radar of the general public.

One I didn't think of, but might be a good consideration (especially with a FM turbo kit) is the R5 Turbo.

That'd be really cool, and might break in to the unique category but that is (somewhat) widely recognized by "general populace" types.

The drive train would be in the wrong place, but the R5 (non-turbo) was front engine....

Random thoughts.....

I think Spec Locost may be the answer.
Every guy here wants a Locost but is either not sure where to start or which way to take the build. If you had a Spec frame and could source the parts from one single Miata you may be on to something.

When FFR started it was not the most bad a$$ Cobra you could buy. It was actually more so the most accesable Cobra that a home builder could buy. Add on top of that the Spec class that then gave an owner something to do with it once you built it.

You do not have to stop at Spec. Like FFR have Spec as a portion of the idea while leaving room for the buyer to be creative.

I think the Elan is the only viable option put forth and could actually work.

The Italian proponents are not well enough known and have debatable styling. The lines of the Elan are indisputable.

The original Elan was fiberglass, so you wont be up against that stigma, and the underpinnings are going to be Miata reliable boosted by the lighter bodywork of the Elan.

carguy123 wrote: Also keep in mind that almost every car built today uses the same suspension subframe set up as the Miata. The only difference in the Miata is that is uses the PPF. Does the RX8 use a PPF?

Not a point to overlook. However, my interest with the Miata is based on these points: 1) availability of cars, 2) cheapness of cars, 3) inherently good handling characteristics, 4) relatively low weight, and 5) power upgrade options.

IanF wrote: Well, for better or worse, your market research should be someplace other than here. We like odd, weird and otherwise generally unloved cars. In a way, you need to ask non-car people what they like. However, the problem there lies in a rather limited selection of potential designs that fit the design criteria of a Miata, since most non car people will be drawn to either V8 muscle cars or mid-engine exotics. Even the cars the Miata was based on (Elan, Spitfire, MGB) are pretty much gone from the radar of the general public.

This, ultimately, may be the deal breaker. If the creation doesn't capture the hearts of enthusiasts, there is no hope of a profit.

Figure out how to keep it titled as a Miata and not a home-built and you will probably open up some market size.

GTwannaB wrote: Figure out how to keep it titled as a Miata and not a home-built and you will probably open up some market size.

I've checked, there is no longer an option for a "rebody" so that probably won't be happening.