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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/10/20 10:14 a.m.

So the 914 analogy might be stronger than it initially appears. If VW comes up with a corporate skateboard, then it's a matter of taking that and sticking a Porsche badge on it to justify a higher price than a VW badge can support. And if Porsche purists take offense, well, again it's a 914 :)

I don't agree that an electric has to be cheaper than the ICE equivalent to be competitive. Our current market shows this to be incorrect. Never mind EVs, people pay a premium for diesel trucks when there are gas variants available. Yes, they do different things - which is exactly my point.

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports Reader
1/10/20 10:42 a.m.

DId someone say retro cars are dead now?   VW is supposed to produce the EV van again..and not super expensive.

porschenut
porschenut Reader
1/10/20 12:24 p.m.

Porsche has no good history on entry level cars.  They can't make the profit dollars per car like the SUVs and such.  The 914, 924 and944 were around for 6 years each, compare that with other models.  The marketing concept of entry level leading to upscale sales never worked for them.  

Hate to be so cynical, this is from a 914/924 owner for over a decade.  But when I consider how the PCA and dealerships treated me it is how I feel.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/10/20 12:34 p.m.
triumph7 said:

Yes, but it has to be at a reasonable, sub-$30K price point.  Which IS doable.  The question is whether Porsche wants to play in that arena.  IIRC, they had more customer issues with 914 and 924 models than anything else.  Not because the cars were bad but because the, um, entry level customers expected so much.

I wouldn't expect it to be sub-$30k from Mazda, let alone Porsche.

 

However if it were sub-50k...

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/10/20 12:45 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson said:

In reply to alfadriver :

You're forgetting that Porsche is part of the VW juggernaut.  VW do an outstanding job of platform sharing, much better than anyone else.  The Pepper wagon is the same platform as Audi A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q5, Q7, Q8, E-tron, Lambo Urus, VW Toe-rag and the Porky Mecan.

Now I'm going to have to find my copy of The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul and give it a reread.

 

Back to discussion, for color I'd like to see it in a suffusion of yellow.

TVR Scott
TVR Scott HalfDork
1/10/20 12:53 p.m.

I love the concept shown by PCA.  Just looks fabulous.  I'd take mine in that exact green!

If they could make a $50k model, that would basically be a Tesla Model 3 opponent.  A sporty fun inexpensive commuter that would shred an autocross course would be a very compelling car.

With used prices thru the roof, and the new cars so expensive, there's very little getting younger drivers hooked on the marque.  This would turn that around.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/10/20 12:58 p.m.
porschenut said:

Porsche has no good history on entry level cars.  They can't make the profit dollars per car like the SUVs and such.  The 914, 924 and944 were around for 6 years each, compare that with other models.  The marketing concept of entry level leading to upscale sales never worked for them.  

Hate to be so cynical, this is from a 914/924 owner for over a decade.  But when I consider how the PCA and dealerships treated me it is how I feel.

I have a friend who is a tech in the service department of a Porsche dealership.

One interesting thing he pointed out is that the sales of the SUVs and Panameras meant they had to massively upscale the size of their service department, even beyond the proportion you'd expect from higher vehicle sales.  In short, a 911 might be on its third owner by the time it accrues enough mileage to be due for major service, at which point it might just be taken to an indie.  A Cayenne might get multiple major services while it's still being paid for, because people drive them as cars and not sunny day weekend toys.

 

Porsche has undergone some changes since the days of the 924 and 944.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
1/10/20 1:12 p.m.
TVR Scott said:

With used prices thru the roof, and the new cars so expensive, there's very little getting younger drivers hooked on the marque.  This would turn that around.

I think this is the strategic reason to do it.  With electric cars coming the industry will need to consolidate more, and to me that means more separation between more utilitarian cars vs. "fun" cars.  At the moment the halo around the Porsche brand is fantastic, and they should capitalize it before they're seen as elite expensive play toys for the few.  This will never be a volume driver for the company, but I think about it as a marketing cost to bring more people into the brand.  

Put another way, we've all read about the next generation's desire to drive cars, and what's going to change that?  A reasonably priced (<50k), fun, cool-looking EV sports car I think can hit the spot.  

dyintorace
dyintorace PowerDork
1/10/20 1:14 p.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

DId someone say retro cars are dead now?   VW is supposed to produce the EV van again..and not super expensive.

I sure hope this one makes it to market. We'd seriously consider one to replace my wife's i3 when the time comes. 

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
1/10/20 1:36 p.m.

Here's an interesting article with insider quotes about their plans for future Boxster and Macan models.

Seems like they're considering making fully electric versions of each model on a shared EV platform alongside the ICE versions on their current platforms.

Info about the upcoming EV platform, known as PPE

So a fully electric, 2 seat Porsche seems pretty likely in the next 5 years. The big question is will they dust off the 914 nomenclature or go with something else.

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy Dork
1/10/20 1:42 p.m.

This is the most intriguing EV idea I have seen to date.  It looks cool and I imagine it would be a blast to drive.

RadarRider
RadarRider None
1/10/20 6:48 p.m.
jstein77 said:

Yes, now is absolutely the time.

I think the market would be more friendly to a VW Karman Ghia version.  I don’t think Porsche would want to go down market enough to make it work numbers wise.  Of course, with shared platforms and some interior pieces, perhaps both would be viable. 

RadarRider
RadarRider New Reader
1/10/20 8:41 p.m.

In reply to dyintorace :

Yeah, might make more sense as a reimagined Karman Ghia. 

Mike
Mike SuperDork
1/11/20 11:25 a.m.

I think "914" is an informative name for a discussion, but I can't imagine Porsche would literally call a car that.

Based on the VAG EV platform, I'm seeing this project as being more like the Audi TT. It's platform engineering a sports car out of a volume platform. Porsche hasn't really done this in 40 years, even if the Beetle and 356 were kin. Sure, crossovers, but the Boxster was never, I dunno, a VW EOS.

Put a two door, 2+2 fastback body with hard roof panel on the awd skate. Give it a roomy trunk and a frunk. Give it a sub-718 Boxster entry price that is still above the Audi and VW that are most mechanically related. Almost no standard features. Long option list. Focus on federally subsidized leases in the US. Do an S at the same time, drop a GTS and Turbo shortly thereafter. Maybe do a RWD "spyder" skate in the last year of the platform.

Lease me one in Miami Blue.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/11/20 12:36 p.m.

The 924/944 were based on a VW platform, no? The fact that you can put Super Beetle parts on a 944 makes me very happy. And the Cayenne and the Touraeg are platform buddies.  Or are those the crossovers you reference?

Porsche is planning on sharing a platform with Audi for electrics. I guess it depends on how much you separate Audi from VW, but they are the A in VAG :)

I do find the "make it super cheap!" requests interesting for both a Porsche and an EV. There is obviously still a large number of people who think the only reason for an EV is to be as cheap as possible to buy and run, and the 944/Boxster category has defined the bottom of the Porsche price range for a generation. Why would they go cheaper for an EV? They're not aiming to take the oh-so-desirable Bolt/Kona/500e market. This theoretical car would sit in an interesting spot in the market, an electric Porsche for people who would otherwise consider a Boxster. Like the way the Model 3 is for people who would otherwise consider a BMW 3 series. Or 4, or whatever BMW calls their sporty sedans this week.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia Dork
1/11/20 12:57 p.m.

People will be happy to pay the extra $10k to say they have a Porsche.....

and the VW  EV skate will probably also be used by Skoda , Seat  and other brands that the VW group owns, 

I am sure in 10 years VW will bring out the New New EV bug  , 

The real problem will be can they make the body and interior etc  with cheap enough tooling that they can afford to sell low volume of each model , 

Somehow the Japanese seem to do that with the K cars.....

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/11/20 1:34 p.m.

I believe Porsche has been using the Cayenne to subsidize the halo cars for a while - one of the previous GT3s had a custom side marker light that had to be reworked and recertified at a cost of 200k euros in order for it to flow nicely in the fender flare. You don't make choices like that unless you've got a war chest :) They might be willing to accept a lower margin on this 914 if it lets them take a lead in the market while the tech evolves.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
1/11/20 1:57 p.m.

Just to clarify, VAG is working on 4 separate EV platforms.

The MLb-EVO platform is used when they want to  electrify a model designed with an ICE. Basically they remove the ICE stuff and put EV stuff in its place. The current Audi E Tron SUV is on this platform. It works great for hybrids, but it's compromised for a full EV and probably won't see many full EV models.

VW's mass market EV platform is currently entering production and is known as MEB. Ford is also expected to use this platform at some point. It's designed from the start as an EV only. It will likely be the most common EV platform around. Default RWD design!

Audi and Porsche are doing an EV platform that's more focused on performance. That platform (known as PPE), is still a couple of years from production, and would be what underpins any future Porsche EV or performance Audi EV. Default RWD design!

The Taycan is on what's currently a one-off platform known as J1. But that platform could spin off some Audis at some point too. Default RWD design!

RandolphCarter
RandolphCarter New Reader
1/12/20 8:17 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Let's look at what really worked for them.  The 924/44/68 platform saved Porsche as a company.  Why wouldn't they look at another front engine rear drive chassis?

An electric 928 S4?

One please. Arrow Blue with a Light Gray interior.

 

(now I just need room in the budget for one)

 

TreDeuce
TreDeuce New Reader
1/12/20 1:14 p.m.

Wow!  What a comment response.

With performance specs similar to the smaller Porsche and a 300-mile range for a similar price point it would move me to add it to the stable.

The original Tesla 'Roadster' was a hoot to drive.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
1/12/20 4:10 p.m.
alfadriver said:
dean1484 said:
Keith Tanner said:

It would be a really interesting entry into the marketplace. I'd love to build an electric ND Miata, but the Porsche price point is probably more realistic. You can charge more for a car with a Porsche badge on it than you can for one with a Mazda badge.

There's one thing that sticks out, though - a big part of the cost of an EV is the battery. And the $100k Taycan can only manage 200 miles of range. If they're targeting 150-180 miles with a similar powertrain, it's going to still need a lot of battery and they're aiming at a lower price point. Either that or they'll have to make it more efficient than the Taycan.

This is a case where the cost will be offset by all the suv sales. 

That's the fastest way to have a car eliminated.  It takes ONE shareholder to question why profits are low because of non legal requirements to subsidize a car, and that car will die a quick death.  Just look at all of the OEM's who are stepping away from profitable cars- as the profits are not high enough.  No way a car gets a boost that can't make money.

News for you. What do you think pays for the halo cars and all the high tech crap that some of it eventually filters down to other cars.  For Mercedes it is the GL. For Porsche it was the cayenne and now it is what ever there new smaller one is.  

Packard
Packard New Reader
1/12/20 6:28 p.m.

I'm not a fan of EVs however don't mind them. They have a place in the auto market and auto sports however there is still much to be done with combustion engines.

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
1/12/20 9:35 p.m.

Thinking about this more I think that Porsche  should bring back the Boxster name and make it an electric sports car. 

SirNick
SirNick New Reader
1/13/20 10:34 a.m.

Wow, GRM!  You've sure poked the hornet's nest.  However, I believe this discussion is moot.  Hasn't Porsche already decided that the next generation of Boxster/Cayman will be EV?  And that the next gen. of 911 will be hybrid?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/13/20 10:45 a.m.

If you want to see the hornet's nest, you want to check out the Sony EV thread...

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