Salanis wrote:I think this is one of those things that's kind of like porn:
I'm not sure how to define it, but I sure know it when I see it!
And it's all very arousing too.
My favorite definition thus far in this thread.
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Feb. 7, 2010 6:22 p.m. neckromacr New Reader
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Feb. 7, 2010 9:36 p.m. Moparman Reader
A sports car in its original sense was a road car with motorsport as its primary goal. A sportscar could be driven to an event, compete and be driven home. Of course that was before roll cages or even bars were mandated.
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Feb. 7, 2010 9:41 p.m. mtn SuperDork
Moparman wrote:
This doesn't fit the first part, but it works for the rest of it.A sports car in its original sense was a road car with motorsport as its primary goal. A sportscar could be driven to an event, compete and be driven home. Of course that was before roll cages or even bars were mandated.
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Feb. 7, 2010 10:39 p.m. Volksroddin Dork
minimac wrote:
Real sportscars don't come with cupholders.
thats why i always thought of my ACVW as a sports car and my P71 as a GT car
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Feb. 8, 2010 12:22 a.m. MitchellC Dork
Sports cars are not about speed, cost, or any other really quantifiable measure. They are much more about compromise and how justifiable they really are.
A sports car means: - You probably cannot fit your golf clubs in the trunk, and if you can, you should be ashamed for even considering your clubs. - You can carry home your groceries or bring someone grocery shopping with you; not both. - Babies scare them away. - It should be among the first three topics that should arise during arguments with the significant other.
And this is how you know you have a supercar: - You hire someone to drive your clubs to the course. - When running errands, you never actually stop anywhere in fear of the car getting keyed, stolen, or urinated on.
- The arguments have stopped, ever since you got that divorce. - You cannot afford it; no, not even you. -
Feb. 8, 2010 9:49 a.m. Moparman Reader
Also, remember that performance was different back in the day. Many consider sports cars be be focused not on power, but on handling. What is being missed is that the cars that we think of as being handling focused (old British, Italian and German cars) WERE among the fastest on the road at the time. In the late 1940s the Jaguar XK120 was the fastest production car in the world. It could reach 120 mph. Not so fast in today's world. Triumph would take its TR cars to Le Mans. Until the 1960s V8 horsepower race, cars which we consider to be handling focused were considered top all around performers.
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Feb. 8, 2010 10:06 a.m. joey48442 SuperDork
I say we change the meaning of sports car. Let's say any car used for something fun is a sports car. Like a jeep doing a trail thing= sports car! A jeep commuting on the freeway= not a sports car. A miata or mustang autocrossing?= sportscars! On the highway going to work?= not sportscars. I think it's in how you use it. If it's being used in a sporting manner, it's a sports car. If it's just cruising around, it's not.
Joey
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Feb. 8, 2010 10:38 a.m. joepaluch Reader
I have considerd the mustang to be a border line sports car. It size is right on the edge. The earliest versions we some what nimble, but that did change over the years.
The current versions. Again right on the edge.
My Criteria
> Nimble handling. This requres reasonably light weight (for the era), moderate size and good responsiveness.
> Room for 2 and sometimes room for 2 smaller people. If 4 fit "comfortably" the car is too big. If the rear seat are good for kids, small people or some you don't like move on. If the car is designed with intent of carrying alot of stuff (be it people or cargo) no. If a car's design allowes carring large odd shaped objects fine, but these are a buy product of making use of the space allowed by a given shape.
> Resonable power/weight.. Again it must be put in context of the era, but a car needs to have enough juice to not be a total slug. The key here is the contex of is era. You can't compare a 1959 Porsche 356's 0-60 time with a car from today.
> Design attempts to balance power and handling in a fun to drive package with noticable compromises for driver comfort and utility.
GT cars are similar, but tend to be tuned more torward giving up some responsiveness to allow comfortable high speed driving. GT cars will also trade weight for extra luxury features. GT's often have token back seats or back seat suitable for short durations. Luggage space is required in a GT car. The car's intent is to pack enough for a couple to spend a few days in new destination driven to by the GT car. They will arrive fresh and comfortable after a rapid drive.
Sport Sedan. - 4 dr 4 place car with room for 4 people that can also provide relativly sharp handling given the size needed to carry 4.
Muscle car - Car with a big motor that gives up small size, light weight and preciise handling in effort to allow for big powerfull motors. Driver comfort is not essential, but acceleration is. Top speed is not as critical nor is sustained high speed.
So the mustang (and camaro) really are designed to be inbetween Sport car and Muscle car. The first were "sporty" basic cars, but they saw they could fill gap that was somewhere between sports car and muscle car. A car that could in serve a few roles. It could be considered a sports car when optioned and or modded in a certain way. It could also be pure muscle car. Or it could still be basic sport transport.
Now no VW Rabbit/Golf/GTI nor Mini is a sports car . The car's shape and rear seat room do not allow for that (both shapes optimized with given size limitations to carry 4). Even so they may be raced with great sucess.
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Feb. 8, 2010 10:49 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork
Lets not change the definition when the one that's been around for decades still works. Just because cars in every segment have gotten faster doesn't mean that the definitions need to be changed.
I always find it funny when owners of GTs get insulted when their cars are called GTs. "It's a sports car, dammit!" GTs were sports cars with fixed roofs, and were often faster than their sports car twins due to the better aero of the fixed roof. That was it. Saying your GT is a GT is not an insult, any more than saying your pickup truck is a truck.
Real sports car manufacturers knew the definitions. They created them and raced under them. MGB? Sports car. MGB GT? Well, says so in it's name (and this was back before marketers got a hold of the terms and screwed them up for everyone... No, you're Elantra 5 door hatch is not a GT, any more than the Miata is a roadster...). Spitfire? Sports car. GT6? Again, says so in the name, even though most of the car is still Spitfire. Porsche 911s are GT cars, which is why they run in the GT classes. Ferrari knew this stuff, too, which is why the GTO is, well, a GT, as is the 250 GT SWB. And the 275 GTB. Hell, Ferrari went so far as to make sure that the pure definition, if it was designed as a road car first it was a GT, was retained even if it was a convertible: 365 GTS/4 Daytona Spyder, for example.
no, the definitions work just fine. there are sports cars. there are GTs. There are pony cars, there are musclecars. There are sport sedans. There are station wagons, pickup trucks, etc. It's just that the cars in the categories are more competent than ever.
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Feb. 8, 2010 10:53 a.m. joepaluch Reader
So Lotus Elise = Sports car due to the open top Lotus Exige = GT car since it has a fixed roof. Despite the fact that it is a fail at being a GT car which means transporting 2 in comfort for long distances. IE GRAND TOURING.
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Feb. 8, 2010 10:53 a.m. JFX001 Dork
My take:
Iacocca went to Shelby and asked him to make the Mustang a "sport car" to beat the Corvette...and he did.
Along that vein, I believe the Mustang to be a great GT car (V8's primarily), and Shelby/Saleen/Steeda/Kenny Brown/Roush etc. versions to be more of a "sports car". The '93/'95/'00 R models were factory sports cars.
IMHO, the '03-'04 Cobra's, are simply bad ass.I'm actually surprised that the bean counters allowed them to be built.
I believe the theme is that while the Mustang is Ford, outside vendors will take responsibilty for anything above and beyond the regular old GT.
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Feb. 8, 2010 11:33 a.m. Raze Reader
This thread is funny, like chewing glass, you know it's going to hurt, until you stop...
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Feb. 8, 2010 11:50 a.m. mark_850t New Reader
originally - yes in the late 80s and early 90s - yes early to mid 2000s - no except for the supercharged cobras now - leaning towards yes, except for the 3500 pound plus KR versions
the late 80s mustang 5.0 in the coupe / notchback config with 5 speed definitely was a no-frills sports car. The newer supercharged models have great engines however some of the huge proportions of the car (though not as bad as mopar) lend themselves to long drives and cup holders vs. track use
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Feb. 8, 2010 11:52 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UltraDork
minimac wrote:
Real sportscars don't come with cupholders.
Hrmmm...
Celica - Not a sportscar
Escort - Not a sportscar
MX6 - SPORTSCAR!!!!!!! WIN!!!!
Hrmmm... this gets interesting, seems it meets some other qualifications, too:
1) 150+mph? Check.
2) 500hp? No, but power to weight equal to a 500hp current mustang? Sure.
3) 1.0g+? With some real tire, probably.But i guess it's only a sports car if driven in reverse.
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Feb. 8, 2010 12:23 p.m. aussiesmg UltraDork
Just to add to the turmoil, what is a 427 Shelby Cobra then.
IMHO it is a sports car as it has two doors, is RWD and only has two seats, power is not relevant.
Mustang is not a sports car, too many seats.
RX7 1st gen rear seats, ever sat it one, that is not a real seat mate.
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Feb. 8, 2010 12:49 p.m. Moparman Reader
1st gen RX7s did not have rear seats here in the States, mate.
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Feb. 8, 2010 1:46 p.m. mr2peak New Reader
DirtyBird222 wrote:
mr2peak wrote:
True sports cars are Front Engine, Rear Wheel Drive.
Fixed
What does that make an F1 car then? Fiat X1-9? MR2? Almost all Ferraris, Lotus, etc? The only reason to have the engine in the middle is to increase the performance potential of the car, hence sportscar.
Any car that compromises practicality for performance is a sportscar. The bigger the compromise, the more of a sportscar it is.
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Feb. 8, 2010 2:14 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork
mr2peak wrote: Any car that compromises practicality for performance is a sportscar. The bigger the compromise, the more of a sportscar it is.
Doesn't that make a sportbike the ultimate sports car?
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Feb. 8, 2010 2:18 p.m. mr2peak New Reader
It kinds swings and misses on the whole CAR part...
You still don't need doors :)
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Feb. 9, 2010 9:36 a.m. Chris_V SuperDork
joepaluch wrote:
Despite the fact that it is a fail at being a GT car which means transporting 2 in comfort for long distances. IE GRAND TOURING.
So does a GT6 or a 250 GT SWB or a 250 GTO. the category doesn't care. See how insulted you get for calling the GT car a GT car, even though the point is to be a faster? Why get so pissed that a GT car is called that?
Not a comfy car. But a GT.
Simply put: Not a GT:
GT:
Not a GT:
GT:
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Feb. 9, 2010 5:47 p.m. EvoRoadster New Reader
Main Entry: sports car Function: noun Date: 1928 : a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving.
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Feb. 9, 2010 6:44 p.m. oldsaw Dork
Raze wrote:
This thread is funny, like chewing glass, you know it's going to hurt, until you stop...
It's like the Constitution; the original works perfectly.
Quit trying to change bedrock into sandstone.
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Feb. 9, 2010 9:04 p.m. speedblind Reader
I vote no way no how.
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Feb. 10, 2010 12:45 a.m. Racer1ab Reader
I find it odd that a place that embraces P71s, Astro vans, and Miatas, has members that still choose to look down their nose at certain mainstream cars.
I used to be a diehard Ford guy, until I entered the world of track days and saw all the different stuff out there. Now, in my attainable dream garage there will be a turbo Miata parked right next to my Mustang.
Drive one, you may like it.
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Feb. 10, 2010 8:48 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UltraDork
We aren't looking down our nose at Mustangs. Merely determining whether it's a sports car or not. Whether or not it's a sports car doesn't mean it's any better or worse of a car.
