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I have yet to find a single selling straight gasoline, all the ones around me only have e10, even high test is e10. I'm going to try adding 2 tsp to a gallon and see if that will help thin it out a bit. As well as burn out some of the gunk in the e10, it seems to turn the carbs black more often as well.
But of course none of this happens in canada...ehh!
Andrew
Toyman01 wrote:Paranoid? I've only seen one in this discussion so far.
The local Stihl dealer has had a bunch of problems with ethanol in chainsaw carburetors. Mostly in saws more than ten years old. It is turning the diaphragms and gaskets into mush. My father just had three of them replaced. Also a lot of the older outboard boat engines are having fuel pump failures and carburetor blockages. Most of the marinas carry 100% gas for that reason.
I guess Zomby's stuff is just better and newer and the rest of us lie.
I replace on average 10 carbs a week. If the fuel doesn't eat away sealants in the carb, the deposits it leaves (which appear to be a polymer of sorts) plug the ports and check valves so bad that an ultrasonic cleaner won't even touch it. Stihl has a list of carbs that cost less than their appropriate rebuild kits because we have no choice but to replace them. Also I'm not sure if its just the quality Oregon uses, but in the small quantities a saw tank holds, fresh fuel can become unburnable in as short as a week. I've been told that they start with a much lower octane gasoline before adding ethanol to bring it back up to its advertised octane rating. A big reason for the marine fuel too is because many boats have fiberglass fuel tanks, which ethanol eats through.
We have Ethanol fuel in Canada, just about every station has 10% ethanol in the regular fuel. Premium us still good ol' gasoline though.
I can tell you from personal experience.
Ethanol blended fuels put the hurt on two-stroke engines.
Echo and Husqvarna are both aware of it. We started having problems with burnt up engines in chainsaws and string trimmers about two years ago. These were from experienced guys who knew how to run 2-stroke equipment.
I contacted the tech departments at Echo, Husky, Sthil and Makita (Sachs-Dolmar saws)
Everyone but Makita told me that the ethanol was causing increased engine temperatures which causes pistons to melt, rings to stick and cylinders to get scored.
The solution was to tell customers to run only premium in their power equipment (good luck with that) or de-tune the machines.
We richened up the top end on the engines and they quit burning up.
The problem is, professional guys like loggers who's felling time relates to their paycheck will always tune the machines to ten tenths in order to get the most work done in a given time. They're not really happy when they have to accept reduced performance.
There you go, not heresay, first hand experience.
I doubt there would be any significant trouble in a water-cooled 4-stroke though.
Shawn
We've been using the 10% stuff in RI for a few years now.
It's not the apocalypse the OP is describing. My 15 year-old d16z6-swapped Civic still returns 38-40mpg on the stuff.
Calm down and go on w/ your life.
I'd like to point out one thing about fuel- fuel blends in the US are very regional. So what one person gets in Georgia is probably a lot different than the same station, both with E10, in Wisconsin. The reason is that regions are allowed to re-blend their gas to help with emissions- part of the non-attainement solitions that areas work out with the EPA.
Generally, what that means is that the HC blends tend to be of the less evaporative nature, aka-longer chains. That's probably what you see gunking up your fuel systems, assuming that rubber and gaskets are not being consumed. For sure, it's not the ethanol- that's a very simple molecule, especially relative to the HC's in gasoline.
Again, all the testing I have done has shown very little difference in lab quality E10 and gasoline. If I could harbor a guess, the evils you are seeing with what you think is E10 based is probably the blend of fuel that is the rest 90%.
BTW, my testing is done in a lab environment, so repeatabilty is rather important, and I use spec fuels as laid out by the various agencies who certify emissions.
Just run it. Whatever you do to try to "improve" it will cost more than any loss in economy or power for E10.
Eric
gamby wrote:No kidding. There is so much BS, and nonsense in this thread, it's just funny.We've been using the 10% stuff in RI for a few years now.
It's not the apocalypse the OP is describing. My 15 year-old d16z6-swapped Civic still returns 38-40mpg on the stuff.
Calm down and go on w/ your life.
A rough calculation indicated that I've used well over 100,000 liters of this stuff in my cars, 2 stroke race bikes, chainsaws, and other power equipment without a single issue. None of the shops I've dealt with have any problems with it, either. As far as know, only 1 premium fuel is available without ethanol, here, but even they aren't sure. On the pump it's labelled as no alcohol, but also labelled as top tier fuel, which has a min of 8%. If it's so bad, then why do most of the major auto manufacturers recommend it's use?
Bottom line everyone is having some sort of problem except alfa and zomby, good to know. I'll have to look out for a high test that has no ethanol or hit up a marina or something then, so my weedwhacker doesn't need a new carb every 6 months.
Andrew
Well, add me to the list of "no problems." Though i can't speak to 2-stroke motors, or carbs.
I fully plan on running E85 on my car without replacing any of the lines or filters or anything. It's been done, it's held up, it's fine. The DSM guys have been running E85 on their stock lines and everything for years with no issues.
If i've taken a hit in MPG, i haven't noticed. My Celica still returns 33-34mpg mixed (better than EPA says it should), the Escort gets 29-30 mixed (my life for a true overdrive gear) and the MX6 gets 26-28 mixed (Boooooooooooooost).
Whether these numbers could be better or not, i'm not real worried about it. They're good enough for me.
My escort delivering pizzas would get 32 in the summer and 29 in the winter, almost unfailingly. That's all city driving. It runs fine, just loses sone efficientcy. Both miatas also drop by about 3 mpg in the fall, untill they get put away fir the salty monthes. Is it a winter blend with ethanol? I dunno.
Joey
I tend to agree with Zombie. My snow blower, lawn mower and trimmer are running just fine. When I do the seasonal thing I add a little Stabil. As for the water thing, "Dri'Gas" is alcohol. My ZX2SR still gets great mileage. I even got 59.9 mpg on an economy run. Normal is in the upper 30's.
digdug18 wrote:Bottom line everyone is having some sort of problem except alfa and zomby, good to know. I'll have to look out for a high test that has no ethanol or hit up a marina or something then, so my weedwhacker doesn't need a new carb every 6 months.
Andrew
If you have problems, change stations. it's not the E part that's the problem, at least for 10%.
but, it's your money, do what you think is right for you.
E-
joey48442 wrote:My escort delivering pizzas would get 32 in the summer and 29 in the winter, almost unfailingly. That's all city driving. It runs fine, just loses sone efficientcy. Both miatas also drop by about 3 mpg in the fall, untill they get put away fir the salty monthes. Is it a winter blend with ethanol? I dunno.
Joey
More likely the cold weather. Cold air is denser and so is cold fuel. means you are putting more of both into the engine
93celicaGT2 wrote: If i've taken a hit in MPG, i haven't noticed. My Celica still returns 33-34mpg mixed (better than EPA says it should), the Escort gets 29-30 mixed (my life for a true overdrive gear) and the MX6 gets 26-28 mixed (Boooooooooooooost).
If that's on E85, then I have no idea how that's possible. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline for the same volume of fuel.
If you're talking about E10, then the 10% ethanol probably doesn't have a huge impact on your gas mileage. (Anything after this point isn't directed at you, just in general)
Ethanol does have a much higher octane rating than typical gasoline. Like a lot of things, it tends to help when the application (engine) is designed for that particular fuel, rather than taking something and adapting it. Because of its higher octane rating, they blend it with lower octane gasoline to make 87, or 89, whatever they're selling. And there are warnings about the reduced "life," for lacking of a better word, of ethanol-blended fuel. Sitting around, it won't stay good as long as pure 100% gasoline. It is, after all, a blend. Ethanol absorbs water, and that means water vapor in the air. Leave it around long enough and it will absorb enough to start messing with the mixture. Octane rating drops and you start getting corrosive problems. It's not a particularly stable substance and it's shelf life is between two and three months. Leave pure gasoline around long enough and the impurities will settle, but it won't separate and change to the extent E10 will.
It's a different substance; you can't blend a completely different liquid into another and say that it's exactly the same as a pure mixture. It has unique effects.
I'm reminded of the predicted no-lead apocalypse in the late '70s. I still own a 1967 V8 car that's had 80k unleaded miles put on a 190k mile engine, and it doesn't smoke or rattle or knock or tap.
Duke wrote:I'm reminded of the predicted no-lead apocalypse in the late '70s. I still own a 1967 V8 car that's had 80k unleaded miles put on a 190k mile engine, and it doesn't smoke or rattle or knock or tap.
But you had the valve work done to enable to run on unleaded, right? Unchanged, it probably wouldn't be in such shape. The engine had to be designed for unleaded or adapted to it, like higher ethanol/gasoline blends.
Leaded gas would be the natural choice for an engine, except for the environmental concerns.
JeepinMatt wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote: If i've taken a hit in MPG, i haven't noticed. My Celica still returns 33-34mpg mixed (better than EPA says it should), the Escort gets 29-30 mixed (my life for a true overdrive gear) and the MX6 gets 26-28 mixed (Boooooooooooooost).If that's on E85, then I have no idea how that's possible. Ethanol has less energy than gasoline for the same volume of fuel.
If you're talking about E10, then the 10% ethanol probably doesn't have a huge impact on your gas mileage. (Anything after this point isn't directed at you, just in general)
Oh no no no... that's not on E85. 
I haven't converted yet. And i'm not doing it for financial reasons, either. The MX6 will be fed E85 for the sole purpose of MOAR BOOSTZ.
JeepinMatt wrote:But you had the valve work done to enable to run on unleaded, right? Unchanged, it probably wouldn't be in such shape. The engine had to be designed for unleaded or adapted to it, like higher ethanol/gasoline blends.
Nope. Just started putting unleaded in it. It's never had a problem.
Duke wrote:JeepinMatt wrote:But you had the valve work done to enable to run on unleaded, right? Unchanged, it probably wouldn't be in such shape. The engine had to be designed for unleaded or adapted to it, like higher ethanol/gasoline blends.
Nope. Just started putting unleaded in it. It's never had a problem.
I'm stumped. When I was in high school, my dad picked up a '68 Merc Cougar with a 302. It never had the valve job done to it, but we stuck leaded additive in it as a precaution for the few spins around the block while we fixed it up. Never got around to the valve job; he sold it and bought a C3 Corvette instead.
mad_machine wrote:can probably get it from a kart track or a small airfield.. I doubt they allow ethonal in airplanes due to the possibility of water in the fuel freezing. (or at least any good pilot would not allow fuel mixed with ethonal)
Aviation fuel is known as 100 LL . It is 100 octane and leaded. Alcohol is not allowed in it.
Eric, do you publish any of your data or is it all for in house use?
Anybody know if I can just goto the airport and buy aviation fuel, and how much it would be for a gallon of it?
I'll be calling some of the local marinas around me, to see about non-e10 gas as well. Otherwise I have an email off to vp racing fuels, about unleaded non-e gas as well, see if they make or are planning to make a gas specifically made for the US's switch to e10.
Andrew
Ok, that was a quick email back from them, they have This!
Its made specifically for small engines.
Andrew
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/sef-94-video.html?lnum=17098277
That is a video link from vpracing fuels talking about their gas, and about e10 and what it IS doing to small engines. It is a promotional video, but still tells you the facts. For those of your that don't believe that there is a problem...EH!
Andrew
digdug18 wrote:Anybody know if I can just goto the airport and buy aviation fuel, and how much it would be for a gallon of it?
Yes, and anywhere from $4-$7. The airport near me is around $4.30-$4.50 self serve the last few times I was out there.
Jeff wrote:Eric, do you publish any of your data or is it all for in house use?
In house, but if you read the data at the EPA carefully, noting that California Reformulated is basically E10, and the other fuel (Indolene clear) is E0, you can put together a good comparison.
The only problem with that is the current focus on dual cert.
E-
