MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/23/20 11:27 p.m.

So I bought someones project, a Volvo 740 wagon with some flavor of 5.0 V8 and T5 dropped in it. It's not pretty, but will be a pretty cool driver if I can sort this clutch issue. Background: PO (who I bought it from) claims he got it in trade with a broken clutch cable. Says that he replaced the pedal with a Volvo 240 manual pedal and used a Volvo clutch cable, but that the throwout bearing then went. The clutch intermittently worked for me, but it did not disengage completely. I also have the parts that he took out of the car, including a fabricobbled wilwood pedal. Now, the Volvo clutch cable does not fit correctly in the firewall (The whole is too big), and it's a little loose at the clutch fork as well, and it got melted from being routed between the header and the block. Nor does the Volvo clutch pedal reach fit nicely on its pivot. My main concern is that the fabricobbled pedal has a 1" longer arm [above the pivot], with the same length pedal [below the pivot] as the Volvo one. My hypothesis from poking at it tonight is: the "throwout bearing failure" symptoms are actually due to the Volvo cable / arm not having enough travel to disengage the clutch completely, and the symptoms got worse when the clutch cable melted due to the exhaust heating up. So, I'll start with a new Ford type clutch cable and see if the debacle has munched up much of the clutch / syncros.

Does anyone have any measurements of a Ford Mustang clutch pedal? Or alternatively, does anyone know how far the clutch fork should move?

Does anyone have any pictures of how the clutch cable should mount on the bellhousing? The trans has an SFI bellhousing on it, and the clutch cable currently is bolted in a hole in the bellhousing, but it doesn't seem to be in the right spot: It's not directly pointed at the clutch fork.

And finally, can anyone help me in how to identify the engine, transmission, and rear end? I have owned over a dozen cars and this is the first to have any domestic parts on it. Obviously it's a Ford 5.0 and a T5 type transmission, but how might I ID things further?  

 

Edit: Here's a picture of the car from when I picked it up.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
8/23/20 11:38 p.m.

I don't have a high opinion of cable clutches.

There are other ways, when your done messing with the cable....

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa Dork
8/24/20 12:07 a.m.

T5 should have a tag on the tail housing.  From there you can hit up any of a number of websites that decode them.

Rear end, probably quickest if you give us a pic, but if it is a Ford you probably have an 8.8" or 9" rear end.  Again, look for a tag on the bolts surrounding the third member or the backing plate.

Engine, passenger side of the motor, above the starter should be a casting code, 10-12 letters or numbers?  Probably going to start with "E0_ _"  C= 60s, D= 70s, E=80s, F=90s, second digit is the year

E3_ _ is a 1983 block.

Next two letters of the casting code should be vehicle specific, then department that developed it.  Beyond that im not sure.

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/24/20 12:17 a.m.

In reply to bentwrench :

If I'm going to be dropping the trans to replace a throwout bearing and clutch, I'd love to convert it to a hydraulic setup -- But the Ford T5 hydraulic conversions are a little spend-y for them to be my first option. It looks like there are some external slave conversions available, but the longer travel needed is a design challenge. Also, I don't know that I have the necessary Volvo bits for that to be an easy and elegant option, since some previous owner has so kindly hacked things together to use a cable...

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/24/20 12:20 a.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Thanks! The trans didn't seem to have a tag on it, but I'll have another look for those.

volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter)
volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
8/24/20 6:48 a.m.

I have some flavor of a 302/T5 that I'm stuffing into a Volvo 1800ES.  You're right- the routing of the clutch cable takes it very close to some very toasty bits.  My plan is to fabricobble a heat shield to go around the clutch cable and maybe add a bit of thermal insulation. 

In my project, I just used the whole brake/clutch pedal box from the donor car (in this case a Fox body '81 Cougar) so the whole thing from pedal to T5 is Ford.  I can make some pictures/ measurements if you like.  My clutch also has some sort of aftermarket aluminum eccentric thing on the clutch pedal where the cable engages.  Note- the accelerator pedal is separate from the brake/ clutch cluster.  Giant-ass spring is there to keep the brake pedal up for measurement/ mock up purposes. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/24/20 7:15 a.m.

The challenge Volvo with the 302 and a T5 used a Miata pedal, a 1986 Toyota lancruiser master that pretty much bolts on to the Miata clutch pedal assembly and a Miata slave bolted to the T5.  Worked fine. 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
8/24/20 10:16 a.m.

Probably still has the Volvo rear in it.

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke UltraDork
8/24/20 11:02 a.m.
NOHOME said:

The challenge Volvo with the 302 and a T5 used a Miata pedal, a 1986 Toyota lancruiser master that pretty much bolts on to the Miata clutch pedal assembly and a Miata slave bolted to the T5.  Worked fine. 

Sounds like the cheap and easy solution right there!

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/24/20 5:35 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

Good to know! I see that's a well documented route. Finding and installing a Miata clutch pedal assembly is a bit more work than I'd like to do now considering the state of everything else on the car, but that will be the plan B if I have to take everything apart. Not having to fiddle with a cable all the time would be nice. 

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter)
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/24/20 5:40 p.m.

The finding is easy. I know a guy here in nc that parts miatas. Hes sent stuff to a few of the forum members. 

Sam at h&s motorsports 17047248010

KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
8/25/20 10:17 a.m.

My Monster Miata used a T-5 transmission and the slave cylinder came from MM.  I guess they sell some off-the-shelf slave and a custom little bracket to connect them up.  I came with a busted trans so when I sourced a replacement I had to drill and tap a couple of holes in the bellhousing to put it back together.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/25/20 10:49 a.m.

Bolting the Miata clutch pedal bracket inside of the 740 was a pretty basic thing. I don't recall if we even used a welder. The lot sandwiches at the firewall and attaches at the back to the ash cross brace.

The slave end was stock Miata and just used a piece of heavy angle to bolt to the bell housing. Wish I had taken pics, but it was too obvious at the time so not deemed worthwhile. I also welded a small piece of metal block on the clutch release lever to accept the end of the push rod from the slave cylinder.

 

 

Racebrick
Racebrick New Reader
8/25/20 9:36 p.m.

Do the pedal assemblies interchange between the 240 and 7/9? Can you post pics of the rear end?

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/26/20 1:09 a.m.

Quick update: I purchased a clutch cable from NAPA, had it shipped to a store (fastest way to get one), and went to install it today. I took more pictures, but the one I got of the axle doesn't really show any useful detail (bad lighting), and I spaced on getting pictures of the pedals. The good news is that the clutch appears to be working now; I had my friend (who's garage I am using) step on the pedal while I observed, and the fork moved distinctly farther than with the Volvo clutch and cable setup (but not too far, I think -- is there a feeler gauge measurement I should go for here to avoid over centering the pressure plate?). I could see the pressure plate move off the clutch disk; the gap was small, definitely under an eighth inch, more like a sixteenth. The more interesting part (I won't call it bad, per se), is that the Ford clutch cable initially was too long, by a couple inches. I have read about differences of 3/4" or so between adjustable and non adjustable cables depending on whether they're used with firewall adjusters and aftermarket quadrants, but we had none of those leaving extra cable hanging out of the sleeve and preventing any clutch motion. Credit where credit's due, my friend prototyped a spacer solution out of a socket (I did not see what he did until I got out from under the car), and bam, it worked great. Like angry pixies, we chose the path of least resistance, and instead of redesigning any existing parts, cut down a scrap of tube and tacked it onto the firewall like so:

The previous cable attachment point was a washer welded onto the firewall (hiding a hole that looks like it was done with tin snips). It looked like it came with some kind of a kit maybe, something to put a firewall adjuster into a car that did not have a firewall port for a clutch cable, perhaps.

Here's what's Down Below:

You can see the SFI sticker on this bell housing (which is an intriguing part, because it suggests there may be other goodies lurking, perhaps?), but more concerning is the jaunty angle at which the clutch cable exits the housing (and yeah, I didn't remember to order the right e-clip, so the zip will do for now). I feel like I'm missing a bracket here, something to space the clutch cable out a little so it pulls at a right angle to the fork. With another couple zip ties I managed to get the cable routed around the steering linkage and the exhaust manifold succesfully, so it won't end up looking like this:

And yeah, the wiring is a nightmare. But one thing at a time, eh?

 

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/26/20 1:16 a.m.

In reply to Racebrick :

In short, kind of. I will get pictures for you of both next time I go over. Note that I only have what the PO claimed is a 240 pedal, I don't have the 740 pedal. The 240 pedal I have is for a cable clutch, and this 740 had an OE hydraulic setup. The 240 pedal had the pedal in the right spot, but it's pivot was too narrow and it wobbled on the bolt that was there (which I suspect was factory), and the 240 bolt / pivot sleeve was too short to work. I don't know if the entire box would interchange, but I doubt it. Since it only kind of fits and doesn't work with the hydraulic clutch, I will likely be selling the 240 pedal.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/26/20 2:42 a.m.

Bellhousing looks like it was used because it was cheap/free/came with the swap parts.  That or a Mustang bell would have interfered with a non-Mustang exhaust.  Looks like the exhaust goes right through where a cable bracket should reside.

 

It's certainly not meant for that fork, looking at the way they attacked the hole with metal eating tools.  (Which, incidentally, negates an SFI rating, not that it really matters for this purpose)

Racebrick
Racebrick New Reader
8/26/20 11:26 p.m.

In reply to MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) :

I'm in the middle of doing some Volvo clutch pedal shenanigans myself. I would like to see the pics of the pedal setup, since I might be able to help if it is a 240 pedal. I think I have figured out making most of the parts one would need to add a clutch pedal, or switch to hydro.

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
8/30/20 12:53 a.m.

Here's a bunch of pictures of the pedal today. The 240 (?) pedal is on the right. I added another chunk of metal onto the side of the fabricobbled pedal today to actuate the clutch switch.

Here's the 240 pedal on top showing how its arm is too short compared to the fabricobbled pedal.

In this one I tried to line up the left hand edge of the pivot to shows the differences.

In this one I lined up the actual pedal arms to show the difference in alignment. The 240 works better with the other pedals, but the fabricated one works better with the hacked opening in the firewall for the cable.

So there's that. I may sell this pedal, or cut it up to work with the hydro setup -- but the 740 master cylinders are ~$100, so using the Miata pedal + Toyota MC is more appealing.

On the other end of the cable, I definitely have room to make a little bracket to hold the clutch cable more in line with the fork. I took measurements for it, but I need to acquire a 5/8" hold to but the cable end in.

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