In reply to bastomatic:
So if I paid more than $7,500 in tax (which I'm pretty damn sure I did, we both work) I still get the full baloney $7,500, even if for example, they owe me money back?
Example - I have $9,000 in tax liability and paid $10,000 over the course of the year. They pay me a $1,000 return plus $7,500, giving me a total check of $8,500 in February 2014, correct?
Just where and how do these tax credits work. What tax ?
iceracer wrote: Just where and how do these tax credits work. What tax ?
On your Federal Income Tax return in Feb-April 2014. It's not a tax deduction credit (where you lower your taxable income by $x amount), it's an actual credit (they give you $7,500 off of your total tax bill).
that's correct Jav, an $8500 refund in 2014.
As mentioned, there are plenty of discussions on Leaf specifics at mynissanleaf.com including pricing, incentives, lease vs own, experiences, etc.
I highly recommend a lease, as the technology is developing very rapidly and the lease deals CAN be great. Note that the advertised prices are just good...but not great. Many people are getting GREAT lease deals if you catch the dealer in the right scenario, I got mine for almost half the advertised lease price at the time, crazy cheap. If you buy, you get the $7500 credit with your tax refund. If you lease, the $7500 goes to the lease company, which is why the lease deals start below the expected amount and can get even better.
Absolutely do not get a Leaf unless it has a DC fast charger, it makes the car far more useful! We have an awesome infrastructure already in Oregon (and closely following in Washington), best in the nation by a good margin. We have really enjoyed taking road trips and vacations with the Leaf, it's a really cool change from the norm!
There are other good cars to consider, but mostly with caveats (general list for all areas and conditions for discussion sake):
Volt...Some great deals if you purchase a 2012 model, not many left out there
Smart Electric Drive...VERY cheap and nice to drive, just starting to roll out, NO DC Fast charger planned, and obviously not spacious
Fiat 500e...Haven't driven it yet, but looks good on paper and in the parking lot, California only, NO DC fast charger
Spark EV...awesome performance value, pretty small storage space, DC Fast charger still not available and uses a new type of charger that isn't available like the current Chademo/Leaf-style chargers
RAV4 EV...California only, no DC fast charger, a little pricey but great specs if you need a bigger vehicle
Model S...if you can afford it, you should already have one
The Leaf with DC fast charger is a very easy car to consider right now, given the options. It's definitely the best general-purpose option on the market right now and for the near-future. Personally, I wouldn't purchase a Leaf right now...that's why I opted for a 24 month lease. The 2013 has some nice improvements over my 2012 that do improve the value, so the price won't be as low as mine was. The darker interior color, available cloth, DC+6.6 kW charger option (instead of DC+3.3 kW charger) is better, the heater/air conditioning system is better, the weight is reduced, efficiency is improved, etc. Many minor improvements that make for a better vehicle. Like I said, the technology and cars are evolving quickly!
I recently had a bit of a revelation, about six months after Jessica and I both got an electric car. I don't think I will EVER have a "daily driver" again that is NOT a plug-in electric car. I could see a plug-in hybrid, but I can't imagine ever driving a normal gas or even a non-plug-in hybrid for daily use again. Sure, project cars burning dino juice will come and go, but for the regular commute I absolutely cannot imagine switching back. They just don't make sense to me after getting used to the EV...crappy HVAC, noisy, stinky, PITA to refuel, too much maintenance, and expensive fuel. I really like the EV daily, and I intend to branch out to try an EV racecar soon to see how that feels.
Bryce
In reply to Nashco:
Thank you Bryce! I was hoping for your input. Could we maybe arrange a test drive/demo? I'm thinking SWMBO will want to wait until they announce the 2014's and grab a 2013 late in the year to get the tax credit and cheap pricing.
The company I work for tried them as shuttles yet the range varied too much due to load such as people, heat, defroster, lights and so on.
Call a dealer and explain you want to go for a long test drive, like a couple of hours, and see what it's like. This shows them that you're serious, local, and makes them more likely to want to work with you on the price. We got a great deal when we showed up, took a test drive, showed clear interest, and were ready to sign the dotted line immediately after they met our price point. YMMV, of course. Every local Nissan dealer supports Leafs, as far as I can tell...they sell like hotcakes here.
If you want to try it on your actual commute, which is a great way to get more comfortable with the idea, you should rent one for a day. You can rent them from Enterprise or you can rent from an individual like on getaround.com and try them for a day (or two) to see if you really would like it. Obviously, you won't have a Level 2 charger at home to get the full affect, but you could get the idea pretty well if you do some rough math (a 2013 with 6.6kW charger is 6 times faster than the 110V wall charger that comes with the car). I've done this in the past and it makes the purchasing process so much more comfortable feeling.
Don't expect much change for 2014. Nissan made a lot of changes for 2013 and typically changes and refreshes are spread out at least a couple of years. So far there haven't been any murmurs of further changes for 2014 as far as I know.
Bryce
Also remember that your electric bill WILL be going UP. Not as much as a gas bill but there is still that expense.
From talking to a few people who have them, I would be a little concerned about the available range. They work well for some people, but for longer trips (like 2 hours on the freeway for example) you would need to know where there was a charging station halfway and allow extra time to charge it. Other than that, and being terribly ugly, they sound decent though. I have driven a couple other electric cars (rav4, bmw active e) and hybrids (prius, volt) and other than the prius I liked them.
Make sure you talk to some people in your area who have had one for more than a year. I know I have posted this before and I have nothing against the car but the friends I have with one love it, but it started losing range after only a little more than a year. And this was in the mild climate of San Diego and with a perfect 5 star driving record from Nissan (they log everything and give you a report card on your driving when you come in to the dealer)
Interestingly enough I could see leasing in this one instance being better if your savings by not paying for gas is more than the lease payment+insurance
Note that my friends commute was about 50-60 miles and her car will no longer make it without being charged during the day
I recently had a bit of a revelation, about six months after Jessica and I both got an electric car. I don't think I will EVER have a "daily driver" again that is NOT a plug-in electric car. I could see a plug-in hybrid, but I can't imagine ever driving a normal gas or even a non-plug-in hybrid for daily use again. Sure, project cars burning dino juice will come and go, but for the regular commute I absolutely cannot imagine switching back. They just don't make sense to me after getting used to the EV..
I had a similar feeling after owning my Insight for a while and am looking forward to getting to that point with a real EV. 
Nashco wrote: I recently had a bit of a revelation, about six months after Jessica and I both got an electric car. I don't think I will EVER have a "daily driver" again that is NOT a plug-in electric car. I could see a plug-in hybrid, but I can't imagine ever driving a normal gas or even a non-plug-in hybrid for daily use again. Sure, project cars burning dino juice will come and go, but for the regular commute I absolutely cannot imagine switching back. They just don't make sense to me after getting used to the EV...crappy HVAC, noisy, stinky, PITA to refuel, too much maintenance, and expensive fuel. I really like the EV daily, and I intend to branch out to try an EV racecar soon to see how that feels. Bryce
My wife and I had the same feeling after driving the Volt for a while. There's just no need for gasoline on teh commute or errand running. And with EVs (and the Volt) being as good at being cars as they are these days, it's not a penalty to drive them (and they are definitley not just glorified golf carts as some people think) I love driving by the gas station. I haven't put gas in the Volt in over 4 months...
PHerder wrote: Also remember that your electric bill WILL be going UP. Not as much as a gas bill but there is still that expense.
Not by much. My Volt SHOULD have increased it by about $8/month, but in actual use, we haven't seen even that much increase, as it's been dropping steadily every month since we got the car in February, just like it does every year.
Basically, I'm saving almost $200 a month in gas by switching to electric driving.
Vigo wrote:I recently had a bit of a revelation, about six months after Jessica and I both got an electric car. I don't think I will EVER have a "daily driver" again that is NOT a plug-in electric car. I could see a plug-in hybrid, but I can't imagine ever driving a normal gas or even a non-plug-in hybrid for daily use again. Sure, project cars burning dino juice will come and go, but for the regular commute I absolutely cannot imagine switching back. They just don't make sense to me after getting used to the EV..I had a similar feeling after owning my Insight for a while and am looking forward to getting to that point with a real EV.
I'd like to persuade my wife to try a Volt. she runs around way to much, and too far, for a complete plug in hybrid, but the Volt would work well for her. Me, well it's hard to see me picking an EV to commute in over one of my motorcycles, so for as long as I can I'll probably continue along on two wheels.
PHerder wrote: Also remember that your electric bill WILL be going UP. Not as much as a gas bill but there is still that expense.
According to Nissan's information and our last electric bill for rates, it's something like 5 cents for a complete recharge from 0 to full. I can unscrew 1 light bulb in the bathroom to make that up. 
Very timely thread. I'm actively looking at them. In fact, I didn't see this thread until now because I've been spending all my non-work related computer time researching the Leaf. Very, very intruiging.
By the way, Bryce, sorry I haven't called yet. Will try to call soon.
Yes, lease is the way to go. Resale value is a huge question, as is battery life and price/availability of replacement. I've never leased a car, and am usually against the idea, but this is one case where I think it makes a lot of sense.
I test drove one, and was pleasantly surprised. It's not a sports car by any stretch, but it's not boring. The silence is really eerie at first. But the controls feel good, and the dash/gauge/instrument cluster are fun. Not fast, but electric motors make a lot of torque...instant torque. Caught me off gaurd.
From what I can tell, my electric bill would go up $20/month...if I had to always charge at home (may be able to charge at work).
There are some seriously good lease deals out there to be had, you have to shop around. Seems the best deals are on the west coast. If I get one, I may wind up leasing through a dealer there and shipping here to PA.
I took Tuna's spreadsheet (thanks!) and did my own table. Running a decently reliable old beater is almost always cheaper than a new car, so you can't expect to "save" money. But with the money saved in gas, it doesn't cost a whole lot to drive a new car. That alone is a nice thought...been driving beaters for a while. Would be nice to have a new car, with warranty, etc...
PHerder wrote: Also remember that your electric bill WILL be going UP. Not as much as a gas bill but there is still that expense.
It's not much. Assume 1000 miles/month is about 300 kWh and assume you ALWAYS charge at home. Where I live, that's about $30/month. The same amount of gas in her previous car was about 4 times that cost. Some places have cheaper electricity/gas, some places have more expensive electricity/gas. Run the numbers for your situation, but it's usually much better than buying gas.
We have tons of public chargers where I live. Walgreens, Fred Meyer, etc. have free chargers you can use while you shop. Many employers have or are installing chargers to use at work. Public DC fast chargers are still free where I'm at, so it's free for road trips too. With two EVs at home, we pay between $25 and $50 more per month for our EV charging (not a guess, actual measurement of power into the car charger at home).
Jaynen wrote: Make sure you talk to some people in your area who have had one for more than a year. I know I have posted this before and I have nothing against the car but the friends I have with one love it, but it started losing range after only a little more than a year. And this was in the mild climate of San Diego and with a perfect 5 star driving record from Nissan (they log everything and give you a report card on your driving when you come in to the dealer)
The battery comes with an 8 year, 100k mile warranty against reduced range. If you lease, as I recommended above, this is a non-issue anyway. I've had my Leaf for 9 months and it seems as-new to me so far.
Interestingly enough I could see leasing in this one instance being better if your savings by not paying for gas is more than the lease payment+insurance
So you're saying you'd lease a brand new car, but only if you can drive for free? You're getting a brand new car with a warranty and zero maintenance requirements...why would you expect it to be better than free? Compared to many modern cars, it's a smokin' deal, but it's still a brand spankin' new car with a warranty, which has to cost something. In our case, we ditched the 2005 Saabaru which got ~20-25 mpg, needed a timing belt and tires, and was definitely out of warranty...we expect our 2 year Leaf lease was nearly break-even, costing us about an extra $50/month out of pocket all said and done, including a "free" level 2 charger at home.
Note that my friends commute was about 50-60 miles and her car will no longer make it without being charged during the day
As mentioned above, your friend needs to take it to the dealer if the range is less than 60 miles in San Diego. Unless they're sitting in traffic with the AC cranked to 11 for 3 hours a day, they use digital accelerator/brake pedal inputs in stop and go traffic, or they only charge to 80% instead of 100%, that math doesn't add up. Oh, or if your friend is afraid of the red zone, as in it won't "make it" with room to spare...after you get in the red zone, you've still got about 20 miles of range left. We consistently put significantly more miles on than that per charge when we go on road trips. As I mentioned above, many employers are willing to allow employees to charge at work too, even if it's only on 110V...sometimes it's not possible, but worth asking the employer as the electricity costs next to nothing with 110V charging at work (about a buck per day).
Bryce
Bryce, Did you find the Wal-Mart, etc...charging stations on a website?
Totally agree that one big draw is the relative low out of pocket cost to drive a brand new car w/warranty. But it's still not "free", I'll spend more than what I do running my old Saab now. From my math, it'll be about $40-$55/month more. Cheap price to pay for a new car.
In reply to Nashco:
I did not know about the 8 year/100K mile battery warranty. That makes me even more willing to purchase one outright.
Klayfish wrote: Bryce, Did you find the Wal-Mart, etc...charging stations on a website?
Phone app: http://www.plugshare.com/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.xatori.Plugshare&hl=en
The Leaf and Volt look cool (and added enviro. benefits) but I couldn't convince myself to drive something that reminds me as nothing more than a street legal size glorified golf cart. I need something with three pedals to drive on the road. What about a Chevy Cruze?
92dxman wrote: The Leaf and Volt look cool (and added enviro. benefits) but I couldn't convince myself to drive something that reminds me as nothing more than a street legal size glorified golf cart.
You have to drive one. They are real cars, not golf carts, and both are relatively quick. it's a paradigm shift in how you commute and run errands. And the both have reasonably good handling considering low CGs. I know my Volt is still fun to drive even after 6 months of dailying it. It reminds me a lot of my old E38 740iL (other than back seat legroom, of course).
Try a Volt. Put it in Sport mode and Low range, and hoon around in it a bit. Throttle response is great and the regen deceleration is like letting off the throttle in a lower gear in a regular car. Not sure of the Leaf has a similar setting, but I've heard they are plenty responsive, too.
And pretty soon, you start to feel that running around on exploding dinosaurs is rather crude.
In reply to 92dxman:
Neither drives anything like a golf cart (though the Mitsubishi i-Miev sure does). The Leaf has fantastic torque from a stop! I desperately want to put A6's on a Leaf and go autocrossing. The drive is very different from a gas motor. It has torque like a cammed V8 launching off of a trans brake but doesn't make any noise at all.
It would be kinda funny if you showed up at the autocross with a Leaf on A6s and a generator so you can recharge it between runs .
Javelin wrote:93EXCivic wrote: Why the Leaf over the Volt? Also considered the 500e? Although an all electric Italian car sounds a little scary...The Volt is $40,860 with the same equipment as the base model Leaf S (heated cloth seats, backup camera, etc). They do have a $4,000 Chevy rebate and the Volt is still rated for the full $7,500 Federal rebate, but that's still $29,360 or $5,910 more than the Leaf for less range, and not taking away the running costs (fuel, now needed as Premium; oil changes, etc). The FIAT 500e is only available in California. Also, it has basically no back seat and this car is supposed to transport kiddo.
Data point on Volt oil changes: 10 months and 11000mi from new, my Volt shows 69% oil life remaining. I may not change the oil during my lease.
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