espz28 New Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 5:58 p.m.

SCCA has suggested allowing Legends cars in FMod autox. The idea seems interesting, but Legends seem to be more difficult to find for cheap... So, with this being a "grassroots"site, I thought about Dwarf cars as a suitable substitue. I know there used to be a guy around here (44Dwarf) who had one of these cars, but has anyone autox'ed one?

I've seen "race ready" dwarf cars for $2500-$4000 and used Legends go for 2.5-3 times that amount. Depending on the differences between the two cars, I understand Dwarf's may not be legal in the class - but at a local level where I'll be having my fun most won't care.

Thanks for the input -

Capt Slow Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 6:12 p.m.

There is a guy in our local club (not SCCA) who runs one regularly. Its pretty awesome.

carguy123 Dork
Nov. 25, 2009 6:26 p.m.

I've often wondered what the difference between was between a Dwarf & a Legend? Brand names?

44Dwarf HalfDork
Nov. 25, 2009 7:12 p.m.

The reason for the price difference is simple. Legends are a spec class. you MUST buy the vin'ed frame from 600 racing aka Hummpy Wheeler. You must turn in the vin if you crash hard and the chassis needs to be replaced or due to age. There very controlled even down to the rims have to be the sponsoring MFG's Every part has a part number and brand they must be.

Dwarfs came 1st. Born in AZ two buddy's made them when the two split John Cain staid in AZ as the AZ dwarf car company and the other moved to Charlotte NC area where Humppy and Elliot Forbes Robinson got a look and said hey we can make a boat load of $$ off these....

The differences can be huge, but not always. I general the legends chassis is very flexible and out dated design where dwarfs have matured over the years to stiffer but still safe. Dwarfs run sheet metal body's legends fiberglass. Dwarfs run any 4 cyl make and model legends only use the yamaha FJ Most Dwarf clubs will allow dwarf but legends will never run with dwarfs.....

Both are FUN and can be cheap to run if you just do normal maint and don't drive over your head.

I still have two cars. one is a home built and one is factory built car.

zipty842 New Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 7:28 p.m.

We got a guy running a dwarf in AM up in Oregon. It got fast once it was setup to turn both directions. Word is its getting hayabusa power this winter

hotrodlarry Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 7:59 p.m.

We have a class called the Classic Lites here in new england.Same thing as a dwarf car. Most of em run 600 cc bike engines.

Drewsifer New Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 10:23 p.m.

How cheap are we talking here? These things seem like a real giggle.

suprf1y Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 10:27 p.m.

It's probably only a matter of time before I'm racing a dwarf.

IMO, the mod lites are the coolest of them all, at least to look at.

Drewsifer New Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 10:57 p.m.
suprf1y wrote: It's probably only a matter of time before I'm racing a dwarf. IMO, the mod lites are the coolest of them all, at least to look at.

Even knowing what the topic was about, I still imagined you either riding a dwarf or racing one on foot.

carguy123 UltimaDork
Nov. 25, 2009 11:18 p.m.
suprf1y wrote: It's probably only a matter of time before I'm racing a dwarf.

If you said that line anywhere but at GRM you'd have a boatload of PC police with bull horns surrounding your house!

HeavyDuty Reader
Nov. 25, 2009 11:23 p.m.
suprf1y wrote: IMO, the mod lites are the coolest of them all, at least to look at.

I agree with that and have it in the back of my mind to get one in the semi-not-too-distant future.

44Dwarf HalfDork
Nov. 26, 2009 8:08 a.m.

I'm a founding member of the NE classic lites. Classic lite is the PC name given to dwarf a few years back... The NECL all run the same stock engine a 02-03 GSXR 600 and it must be all stock. The club was started not to edge out the big motor group but to get the older racers who could no longer afford to race the TIME to race on a weekly basis.

Personally i like the classic look but I'm a hot rod nut. Don't get me wrong the modified are nice on dirt but pavement I'll take a classic any day.


44Dwarf HalfDork
Nov. 26, 2009 8:10 a.m.
suprf1y wrote: It's probably only a matter of time before I'm racing a dwarf. IMO, the mod lites are the coolest of them all, at least to look at.

Theres a large group up your way. Not many of them seem to use the web but there are a few over on

suprf1y Reader
Nov. 26, 2009 9:01 a.m.

Being so close to western NY state, dirt's pretty big up here. Humberstone (Gasport), and Merritville are about an hour away, and I'm close enough to Ohsweken that I can hear the cars friday nights. I'll go back to dirt oval someday. It's hard to beat the fun/$.

Wally SuperDork
Nov. 26, 2009 9:25 a.m.

i was hoping for a wrestling thread

carguy123 Dork
Nov. 26, 2009 10:35 a.m.

I keep seeing posts on multiple Locost forums about using bits from these cars to finish Locost builds, but I've never really looked into them. I always thought they were sorta dirt track cars. Guess I was wrong - again.

plance1 HalfDork
Nov. 26, 2009 10:54 a.m.

Never heard of dwarf cars, I'm glad this post exists so I can learn about them. I have driven a legends car, the thing was fun as hell.

Rusnak_322 Reader
Nov. 26, 2009 11:13 a.m.

Why would you choose this over a shifter kart? With the kart, you can road race it as well.

I know that they do road race the Legends cars, I did a motorcycle roadrace at a small airport years ago and they had class for the Legends cars but they looked like they weren't that much fun with the longer track.

Sultan New Reader
Nov. 26, 2009 12:33 p.m.

Random question that I most likey already know the answer but do Dwarf cars have reverse? I'm assuming no but.....

plance1 HalfDork
Nov. 26, 2009 9:05 p.m.

this would be a good GRM story. Dwarfs vs. Legends vs. Gocarts.

Slyp_Dawg New Reader
Nov. 27, 2009 8:30 a.m.

I've thought about getting a Legends and setting it up for straight roadracing/autoX, the technical manual I got from my local Legends dealer even gives instructions as to what would be needed to get it SCCA legal, but a properly geared and set up Mod Lite might just be a little menace on a longer track, with all the potential for HUGE downforce (it's a car that was styled with a slide rule and it does lend itself quite well to having a few Gurney Flaps added to it). I sat in a Legends, and if you're a tall-ish bloke, you want either a sedan (any bodystyle sedan) or the 34 ford coupe, since none of the other coupes really give you enough headroom. I'm roughly 6'0" and sitting in a more late-model style coupe (think it was a '37 chevy coupe or maybe a willys, don't remember though), I couldn't have had a helmet on, otherwise it would have hit one of the cross-bars in the rollcage. if you don't particularly mind not being INEX (600 racing's legends/thunder roadster/bandelero sanctioning body) legal, there's quite a bit you can do to a Legends to get a bit more performance out of them, like converting over to disk brakes in the rear (if memory serves the Legends run a Toyota axle out back, and if not you can always pick up a Mod Lite rear axle/3rd member that will take disks and just re-weld the 3 link mounts onto it), or running fully adjustable coilovers, or racing slicks, or an engine swap, or converting over to an EFI setup, or hell even sticking a LSD into one. a Hayabusa engine (with the H2 Busa block to let it be used in a car application) with a 5 or 6 speed sequential gearbox (G-Force, Elite Racing Transmissions, Hewland if they make one, etc) would be an absolute riot in a Legends car, although you might just spend every waking moment going sideways unless you give it a LOT more grip than it's got

44Dwarf HalfDork
Nov. 27, 2009 8:43 a.m.

Legends must run the Toyota "T" code rear aka the 10 bolt. Dwarfs run the "S" code aka 8 bolt and the "T" code and Winters "Quick Change" or any other rear you want. Most run the S code due to ~35lbs weight savings.

Theres stock LSD's for the T code but not for the S weld or use mini spool ($65).

Some do have reverse gear box but at last i looked it was $1250 so you only seen them at national races.

There are boat loads of cheap fun out there.


kreb Dork
Nov. 27, 2009 9:20 a.m.
Capt Slow wrote:

Am I the only one who expects half-a-dozen clowns to come piling out of one?

But seriously, every time I see those guys at the track, part of me thinks "Those guys have to be having the most fun ever." Then I think "If I put lights on it, I wonder if it couldn't be made street legal.....

Sultan New Reader
Nov. 27, 2009 10:16 a.m.

I have seen pictures of street legal Legends car. I think I would be crazy fun!

Here is the link,

Kreb UltraDork
Nov. 27, 2009 10:37 a.m.

Oh hell yeah!

Now if we could only get a second seat in.....

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.

Also on Grassroots Motorsports

Reader's Ride of the Week: Enviate Hypercar

12 hours ago in News

There’s fast and there’s FAST–and then there’s this thing.

Join the Grassroots Motorsports Dyno Day

3 days ago in News

Join us for a dyno day in Sterling, Virginia.

From the GRM Vault: The Art of Understatement

4 days ago in Articles

The Harvey brothers dominated autocross in an obsolete Datsun a couple decades ago.

2017 Volkswagen Golf TSI SE

4 days ago in New Car Reviews

The quintessential European hatchback continues to pour out of Volkswagen's plants. Our test car featured four doors, a turbocharged 4-cylinder ...

We're Giving Away a $500 Race Ramps Certificate

5 days ago in News

Joining the drawing is totally free.

25 Project Path

6 days ago in Articles

A walk through 25 of our favorite project cars from the past.

Our Turbo Miata Goes Boom

6 days ago in Project Cars

Engine swap and suspension revamp before our race in two weeks? Challenge accepted.

The Ultimate Weekend Getaway for Your Car Club

1 week ago in News

Save a corral space just for your club at the Mitty.

Reader's Ride of the Week: V8 Jag

1 week ago in News

It’s a long-wheelbase 1974 Jaguar XJ6 fitted with a 350-cubic-inch Chevy V8.

Honing Cylinders

1 week ago in Project Cars

We hone our LS1's cylinders

Break Maiden

1 week ago in Articles

Creating a turbocharged road racing champion from a vintage Ford Mustang.

Meet Us at Sebring

1 week ago in News

We'll be at the Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring. Will you?



Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

Subscribe Today

Also get your instant access to the digital edition of Grassroots Motorsports Magazine!

Learn More