M2 FWD Rallycross Build musings

A long time ago, my friends and I tried out rallycrossing with our $2005 CRX. Turns out a sub-2000 lb, narrow, short car with an Integra swap was an excellent little M2 car. That car is long dead, years of abuse in the dirt (and some neglect) helped do it in. I've been rallycrossing on and off since, including one failed attempt at building another M2 CRX.

I've been thinking again about trying to build a serious M2 car again. Might manage to have an approximately $5000 budget.

Requirements:

-Start with a smaller car, but something newer than a 1st gen CRX. Parts are getting too hard to find, and might be needing to hit up a parts store regularly until all the weak points have been worked out.

-Needs to be significantly more powerful than stock. Engine swap is going to be the likely route.

-Must be (sort of) street legal. It'll be driven to events.

-Can be manual or automatic transmission. If its a manual, the engine will need enough torque to accelerate well out of slow turns in 2nd, or the trans will need to be able to stand up to 2-1 downshifts.

-Preferably be able to fit typical 15" rally car takeoff tires. I hear 14" tires are getting a little harder to come by.

-car needs to be mostly rust free. That was one of the CRX's biggest weaknesses.

Other things to consider, what kind of limited slip should it use, suspension setup, how to find a relatively rust free car in Ohio, etc.

Possible candidates so far, feel free to ad to the list. One thing, my budget limit is based on typical deals, not those once-in-a-lifetime deals:

-95-99 Neon with a 2.4 swap - just a lark, I've worked on Neons before, and they should be easy to find parts on for a while

-EG or newer Civic hatch with a swap - Sort of a successor to the old CRX. Maybe even with a Honda V6 swap, depending on finding an appropriate donor.

-Hyundai Accent with a beta swap. Don't know much about these, but I like how small they are.

-B13 Sentra or G20 with an SR20DET. Seems like the engines aren't hard to get from importers, and over 200 HP in a car that small would be nice. Might be hard to find one thats rust free, though.

-Early FWD Impreza with a later 2.5. Could be funny to show up in a Subaru and not run in an AWD class :)

If I go through with this, it won't be rushed, I've got my Legacy for SA this year. Anbody else got any winning formulas? I wasn't at nationals this past year, so I don't know how many "purpose-built" cars are out there.

I have been thinking about a Mazda 323 lately. Or a Saab 900.

How about a VR6 GTI?

Geo Metro + turbo?

Focus hatch + extra engine in the back (for M4 awesome).

Hmm, 323 might be a little old, but a protege might have potential. Wasn't someone on the board throwing a KL engine into a similar escort?

I'll probably avoid all the euro cars like the plague. Although, I've seen what a MKIII Golf can do on a tight course.

Hows the Miata coming along? Gonna be ready to beat a certain RX-7 this season?

I'm sure the Miata will be ready, I can't speak for the driver.

http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/2793841546.html

This plus used EVO bits?

Evan, I'm just glad you and Pete will be scrapping it out in RM or MR or whatever they're calling it. Gives me a better shot at points after my customary 8 DNFs for the day...

+1 on the Neon, but I'm biased there.

I don't know about going dual-motor, but the Focus ZX3s can be had for Challenge money or close to it. Plenty of room for tires!

Acura Integra? Lots of motor options there.

Eclipse/Talon/Laser? I have a total hate-on for those cars after having to push that one on and off the trailer, but plenty of options there.

The probe/MX-6. If you stay in the early 90's, I know a guy that usually has a parts car hanging around =)

Saturns don't have a ton of options, but they seem to be pretty hard to break...

And as to how to get a rust free car in Ohio: You watch the Atlanta (or other Southern) craigslist postings and then bribe me with hookers and blow and we go get it! And then we'll get the van and the trailer and get the car.

I can tell you from experience that an Accent on snow tires is very balanced, and easy to steer with throttle & LFB on both gravel and snow.

EvanB wrote: http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/2793841546.html This plus used EVO bits?

oh god no. would require an engine swap.

used evo bits would go better on any 4G63 engined car.... like a first gen DSM, or maybe an old Galant.

Stuck on FWD huh?

I think you'll be able to find 14" tires for a while. Dmack is available in the US for now (and even has 13" sizes).

My opinions: Neon- awesome for rallycross, maybe not the most robust (long term) or easiest to work on. Support may be dwindling.

Accent- I like the idea but I am guessing suspension and lsd options will be very limited if that matters to you.

B13 Sentra- I wish I hadn't sold mine. Not a ton of suspension travel or very many good lsd options but awesome otherwise. A B13 with intake/header/exhaust, gutted interior, and hankook rally tires (otherwise stock including suspension) took 2nd at Nationals this year.

FWD Impreza with 2.5- I like this option. From what I've read, converting from Awd may be a better long term option than starting from 2wd. There's a good build thread on Dirtyimpreza of one. Not the smallest option though. After driving the Miata I've realized that being smaller is quite valuable.

323/Protege/Tracer/Escort/MX3 are all essentially the same in the 91-94 era, especially in M2 terms (throw my ZX-2 in there as well). Several engine swap and lsd options. Transmission is the weakest link along with available off-the-shelf suspension options. Obviously they can work but I would go Honda if starting over from scratch.

Focus- too big for what you want and too expensive at this point for big power/swaps.

Metro- THIS car was at Nationals. It's about as built as any M2 car I've seen. Their transmissions require a deft touch or frequent syncro r&r.

I too would avoid VW unless going all out on the tranmission upgrades. A GTi was leading at Nationals until its transmission let go. The other one in the trophies had the six speed swapped in.

The overall "best" option to me would be the Civic. TONS of engine swap options. TONS of lsd AND gearing options. Get some Bilstein shocks valved for rallycross with appropriate spring rates and you're set. Armstrong up in DET would be happy to share what's worked for him and Burke over the years. Getting good axles and avoiding full throttle+full steering lock seems important. An older civic hatch won at nationals this year. I think Pete said they had a welded diff and manual steering

And yes, going South or way out west is the best option for avoiding the tinworm. I flew to GRM-land to get the ZX-2. It was listed in the $2k9 classifieds.

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/2795714297.html

This:

Plus these:

= You know you want to.

In reply to wae:

I'll have to clear the payment for using your van and trailer with your wife first

DSMs are bit heavier than I want to run, and I think an Integra is gonna cost more than a Civic. The one advantage it might have is the longer wheelbase might keep the back end from oscillating at higher speeds. That was a little nerve-wracking in the CRX.

In reply to cghstang:

I'll have to keep an eye out for Sentras. That metro looks pretty hardcore, its missing something I want, though - low end torque. My (crappy) driving style tends to require soething that'll make decent power low in the RPM range. I think thats why I did as well as I did in the Corsica, despite its awful suspension. Oh, my rough target is a power to weight ratio better than an early WRX.

In reply to EvanB:

Mother of God that is wrong. I like it.

Oh yeah, regarding limited slip diffs, any opinions on how to set one up for rallycrossing a front driver? I seem to recall seeing earlier STIs not turning as well as regular WRXs in some conditions, especially tight turns with low traction.

For a front driver, I'd think you'd need some power going to both wheels, but might want to set it up pretty loose, to reduce understeer, even if you sacrifice getting some power to the ground.

I think it all comes down to how you drive and what you like.

In terms of outright potential for awesomeness I'd say open<viscous<helical/torsen<plated (clutch type) lsd.

Cars with good power (new civic Si, SE-R Spec V, etc) seem to do quite well with 'just' the helical diffs. I have a helical in my ZX-2 now but haven't rallycrossed it yet. I have heard that it requires a slightly different driving style than an open diff as it makes maintaining a 'drift' more difficult. ZB for instance likes driving with an open diff better than with the helical he tried.

Talking to people, I've heard all different theories on setting up clutch types. That metro has a one-way so it only locks up on accel. One guy at said he intentionally put a 1.5 way in 'backwards' so that it locked up more on decel than accel.

Are you listening over here?
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/98-subaru-forester-s-with-5-speed-std-need-head-gaskets/44751/page1/

Forester w/ 3.3L that you could set up for fwd only.

jrw1621 wrote: Are you listening over here? http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/98-subaru-forester-s-with-5-speed-std-need-head-gaskets/44751/page1/ Forester w/ 3.3L that you could set up for fwd only.

That would be an interesting car. I think I'd leave it AWD and mix it up with the WRXs if i did that, though I'd be more likely to do the swap with my Legacy, sounds like it has less rust than the Forester. I'd want to check in on Team Illuminata's build and see how it is going before attempting anything like that, though.

Oh yeah, cghstang, the Civic idea is at the forefront of my mind for another reason. It seems like its not too hard to find a half-finished swap that someone got too deep in on around here. Of course, to get the low-end torque I want, it'd probably need to be an H22. Maybe we'll do some brainstorming at the banquet this weekend.

Camry with turbo 4 cylinder or V6 and weight reduction. Edmunds lists the curb weight on the coupe at 2900, I'm sure you could get that down a bit.

In reply to EvanB:

Definitely unique, and something with a lot of parts availability, but that thing is huge. One of the CRX's strengths was being barely over 5 feet wide and 12 feet long. We were able to take some slaloms straight in that car. I know a newer car is going to be bigger, but I'm going to try to keep the dimensions (especially width) down,along with the weight. Looks like most compact/subcompacts in the last 15 years or so are between 64-68" wide, so thats something to aim for as a high end.

Like cghstang mentioned, somewhere above, your Miata is an excellent size for this. However, like wae, I just don't want to have to run in the same class as you, cghstang, and Knurled, as I'll likely get clobbered

eastsidemav wrote: Like cghstang mentioned, somewhere above, your Miata is an excellent size for this. However, like wae, I just don't want to have to run in the same class as you, cghstang, and Knurled, as I'll likely get clobbered

RWD is where the fun is

How about a 200sx SE-R if you want something a bit newer (but bigger) than a B13.

Or a Toyota Tercel with 3S-GTE swap.

wae wrote: Evan, I'm just glad you and Pete will be scrapping it out in RM or MR or whatever they're calling it. Gives me a better shot at points after my customary 8 DNFs for the day... +1 on the Neon, but I'm biased there. I don't know about going dual-motor, but the Focus ZX3s can be had for Challenge money or close to it. Plenty of room for tires! Acura Integra? Lots of motor options there. Eclipse/Talon/Laser? I have a total hate-on for those cars after having to push that one on and off the trailer, but plenty of options there. The probe/MX-6. If you stay in the early 90's, I know a guy that usually has a parts car hanging around =) Saturns don't have a ton of options, but they seem to be pretty hard to break... And as to how to get a rust free car in Ohio: You watch the Atlanta (or other Southern) craigslist postings and then bribe me with hookers and blow and we go get it! And then we'll get the van and the trailer and get the car.

Tell me more about the guy that normally has parts Probes/MX6s, please.

EvanB wrote: Or a Toyota Tercel with 3S-GTE swap.

Hard swap, unfortunately.

A 4efte would be easy as pie, and could easily net 200hp.

I vote KL-powered Escort/Tracer/Protege/323.

I think he means the wonderful Probe rental car used for rallycross. 2nd gen 4 cyl. (In regards to the parts probe).