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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Mazda ends RX8 production

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Aug. 22, 2011 4:59 p.m. carguy123 SuperDork

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that there's a new rotary in the works and has been for over a year. I can't point you to a specific article but I swear it's been posted in here several times. In those articles they said the RX8 was dead and even hinted (once again) at a new 2 seater model.

New Rotary with a multi-point direct injection and with a new type of ignition system. I don't remember if it was the laser ignition or what, but it gave a longer burn area with a more complete flame burn. The direct injection was to be multiple injectors to get a better distribution of fuel.

IIRC the rotary is also supposed to be a larger size to help torque.

To me the cancelling of the RX8 is old news except for the date.

I'd bet the issues with the RX8 go all the way back to the downrating of the engine HP and never issuing an engine at a "proper" HP rating.
Aug. 22, 2011 5:01 p.m. 1988RedT2 Dork

Let me start by saying I'm a Mazda rotary fanatic. My first car was a '73 RX-2. I loved that car. My current rotary is an '88 RX-7 Turbo II. I love that car. I have driven an RX-8. It's a very nice package, but I also drove a Corvette right before I drove the RX-7. The lack of torque in the RX-8 is, in that context, downright shocking. I have long felt that the future (if indeed it has one) of the rotary engine is in a balls-out turbocharged sports car (i.e. the 3rd gen RX-7). The RX-8 was a fantastic compromise of performance and practicality, but still a compromise. I'm very disappointed Mazda never brought a turbo option to market. Straightline speed sells cars, and nobody could ever call the RX-8's acceleration "neck snapping". The MPG demons will likely do in the rotary, but I'm still a fan. If the rotary has a future, let it be in a nutso halo car like the viper, and it's absolutely got to be turbocharged.
Aug. 22, 2011 5:06 p.m. Will HalfDork

2003-2111 represents 9 years of production for that platform. That's a respectable lifespan...time to move on.

I never liked the rotary, but the 1 time I autocrossed one, I loved the chassis.
Aug. 22, 2011 5:08 p.m. RexSeven SuperDork

DoctorBlade wrote:

Are they even continuing development of the rotary? I'd read somewhere that the new US regs would kill it.

There was a big discussion on this earlier this month. Mazda did have a new 16X rotary in the works that was supposed to address many of the rotary's shortcomings (poor fuel economy, poor emissions, poor torque). They got the fuel economy (better than current 2.0L in the Mazda3) and torque numbers they were looking for, but not emissions. 16X development has been halted for a few reasons:

1) Mazda no longer has a sugar daddy in Ford, so they have lost some funding money.

2) They are concentrating on developing the SkyActiv engines and watching to see if they will be a sales success/failure.

3) Car culture in Japan is waning. It's all about gadgets right now, not sports cars.

EDIT: I want to add that this doesn't necessarily mean that the rotary is dead. Mazda wants to keep building them, but it all hinges on how well the SkyActiv-equipped cars do on the market. Mazda has taken a pretty big financial hit since Ford sold off their stock.
Aug. 22, 2011 5:11 p.m. Grizz Reader

All this means to me is that RX8s should be going cheap(er) from Mazda dealerships.

Does an LS1 fit in that as well?
Aug. 22, 2011 5:33 p.m. Javelin SuperDork
1. The 16X is still in development, as is a second rotary (a single-rotor, steady-RPM powerplant as a generator for electric cars ala the Volt).
2. Mazda has said multiple times this year that the rotary will be back in a 2-seat sportscar in 2-3 years.
3. An LS1 fits in an RX-8.
Aug. 22, 2011 5:34 p.m. rotard Reader

The S2000 lump is evidently the easiest swap. Not that I think that it is the idea one, but the transmission and what-not makes it the easiest.
Aug. 22, 2011 6:47 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

mndsm wrote:

RossD wrote:

Mazda just needs to ask Ford for some 3.5 liters of Ecoboost and domination of the V6, rwd, grand touring car world would commence.

mmmmm 365 hp and 420 ft-lbs mmmmm

I have to wonder how much of that tech isn't already Mazdas doing. Let's see here. Ford has almost 0 boosted cars in the US, aside from the SVO's. Suddenly Ecoboost turns the world on its head? Something smells fishy.

*Disclaimer- I am not hating on the Ecoboost. It's a wicked engine, and I hope they put one into a Mustang, because a TT v6 stang tickles all the right places. But I can't imagine that it would have been a solely ford design.

None to zero tech is from Mazda. I know 2.0l and 2.3 GTDI's came from Mazda prior to the 3.5l, but I also know that no parts were shared at all.

Honest turbo cars in the US didn't exist since the variants that had the 2.3l turbo in the 80s, but that's not to say that no work was done, and everyone was clueless. I was pretty pessemistic about it in the first place, but it sure turned out darned good.

I didn't see too many faults with Mazda's DI's (they do/did have some issues, mainly with knock and octane...), but for some reason, they are taking a whole new path with the sky enignes. Hope they turn out well.
Aug. 22, 2011 6:50 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

carguy123 wrote:

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that there's a new rotary in the works and has been for over a year. I can't point you to a specific article but I swear it's been posted in here several times. In those articles they said the RX8 was dead and even hinted (once again) at a new 2 seater model.

New Rotary with a multi-point direct injection and with a new type of ignition system. I don't remember if it was the laser ignition or what, but it gave a longer burn area with a more complete flame burn. The direct injection was to be multiple injectors to get a better distribution of fuel.

IIRC the rotary is also supposed to be a larger size to help torque.

To me the cancelling of the RX8 is old news except for the date.

I'd bet the issues with the RX8 go all the way back to the downrating of the engine HP and never issuing an engine at a "proper" HP rating.

Multiple DI injectors per chamber would work, but that's getting really, really expensive to make work. A lot of people bring up DI with rotary, but don't realize that one of the key improvements does not work with a single injector and rotaries....

And with smoke requirements dropping quickly all over the world, I have no idea if DI and the rotary would be a good mix.

Anyway,
Aug. 22, 2011 7:21 p.m. Rufledt HalfDork
Javelin wrote:
1. An LS1 fits in an RX-8.
Yes indeedy, I'm counting on that for when (not if) I need a new engine in my RX-8. I also hope the rotary comes back, if so I may try that out instead of a V8... on second thought, i probably wouldn't. I bet the gas savings on a LS swap would pay off the difference between that and a new renesis in short order. The extra money spent on rear tires would be another factor, but i'll ignore that
Aug. 22, 2011 10:30 p.m. Knurled HalfDork

mndsm wrote:

I have to wonder how much of that tech isn't already Mazdas doing. Let's see here. Ford has almost 0 boosted cars in the US, aside from the SVO's. Suddenly Ecoboost turns the world on its head? Something smells fishy.

Ford designs the V6s, Mazda designs the fours.

In all Ecoboost engines, Ford is using all-Bosch fuel injection components (GM and Chrysler aren't, they cherrypicked the hardware) and they are using the highest spec for tolerance on parts, so there's no having to adapt the computer to new injectors.

And I was told that Ford didn't design the combustion chamber/piston shape, either. My money's on Ricardo Engineering doing that work, either directly through Ford or by way of Bosch.

An EcoBoost 2-liter (good god, the detuned SUV version still has crazy power!) in the RX-8 chassis would be sweet!

But the question remains!!! Does ending production of the RX-8 mean they will start making 12A parts again?
Aug. 22, 2011 10:37 p.m. Knurled HalfDork

Javelin wrote: 1. The 16X is still in development, as is a second rotary (a single-rotor, steady-RPM powerplant as a generator for electric cars ala the Volt).

That's probably the best application. Rotaries suck at idling and running at light load, even after they ditched the peripheral exhaust ports. They actually get more efficient the harder they're run. Which is probably why I've long noted that I can get better fuel economy at 80mph than at 60 :)

Audi was supposedly also in development of a single-rotor Wankel as an electric vehicle's APU/onboard charger. Well, NSU was folded into Audi years back, so why not.

Something else I thought of re: Ford's suddenly going ga-ga over small turbo engines and where did that come from. You know who ELSE is suddenly making all of their cars with smaller turbo engines, after having a long history of not using turbos much at all? Uh-huh. That's right. BMW. I think the base model FIVE SERIES is a turbo four, now...
Aug. 22, 2011 10:41 p.m. carguy123 SuperDork

The smaller turbo engines is what it takes to meet the newer govt fuel mileage standards. More manufacturers will be joining them.
Aug. 22, 2011 10:42 p.m. Knurled HalfDork

What is super funny is how the turbo 1.4 Cruze gets worse fuel economy than if Chevy had just stuffed the 3.5l V6 into it.
Aug. 23, 2011 5:50 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

marks93cobra wrote:

The rotary in the rx8s totally sucked. A co-worker just had to shell out $4500 out of pocket b/c Mazda wouldn't give her the "FREE" engine it ended up getting anyway! The car only had about 30k miles on it, and I guarantee you it wasn't beat on.

That's probably why it blew up.
Aug. 23, 2011 5:53 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

Anyways, i'll be watching RX8 prices drop like a hawk. They're on the bucket list, and i will have one.

Not entirely sure a Renesis will stay in mine, i have funny thoughts about a nasty n/a 20B stuffed in one.
Aug. 23, 2011 6:31 a.m. marks93cobra New Reader

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

The rotary in the rx8s totally sucked. A co-worker just had to shell out $4500 out of pocket b/c Mazda wouldn't give her the "FREE" engine it ended up getting anyway! The car only had about 30k miles on it, and I guarantee you it wasn't beat on.

That's probably why it blew up.

...it probably would haved blown up sooner
Aug. 23, 2011 6:38 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

marks93cobra wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

The rotary in the rx8s totally sucked. A co-worker just had to shell out $4500 out of pocket b/c Mazda wouldn't give her the "FREE" engine it ended up getting anyway! The car only had about 30k miles on it, and I guarantee you it wasn't beat on.

That's probably why it blew up.

...it probably would haved blown up sooner

Doubtful. Rotaries don't function well if babied around. That's why it's not a great motor for your average consumer.

Also why it's a great racing motor.
Aug. 23, 2011 6:50 a.m. mtn SuperDork

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

The rotary in the rx8s totally sucked. A co-worker just had to shell out $4500 out of pocket b/c Mazda wouldn't give her the "FREE" engine it ended up getting anyway! The car only had about 30k miles on it, and I guarantee you it wasn't beat on.

That's probably why it blew up.

...it probably would haved blown up sooner

Doubtful.

Local autocrosser is on his 3rd engine under warranty.
Aug. 23, 2011 7:00 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

Knurled wrote:

mndsm wrote:

I have to wonder how much of that tech isn't already Mazdas doing. Let's see here. Ford has almost 0 boosted cars in the US, aside from the SVO's. Suddenly Ecoboost turns the world on its head? Something smells fishy.

Ford designs the V6s, Mazda designs the fours.

In all Ecoboost engines, Ford is using all-Bosch fuel injection components (GM and Chrysler aren't, they cherrypicked the hardware) and they are using the highest spec for tolerance on parts, so there's no having to adapt the computer to new injectors. And I was told that Ford didn't design the combustion chamber/piston shape, either. My money's on Ricardo Engineering doing that work, either directly through Ford or by way of Bosch. An EcoBoost 2-liter (good god, the detuned SUV version still has crazy power!) in the RX-8 chassis would be sweet!

But the question remains!!! Does ending production of the RX-8 mean they will start making 12A parts again?

Staying off topic..

Uh, no Ford Research did the entire combustion chamber for the FWD EcoBoost, including designing the spray pattern of the injector- Bosch supplied what was told of them.

The RWD version is a combo of Research and Development groups doing an update.

Also- don't equate the Ford Ecoboost 4cyl's with Mazdas, while using similar blocks, they are not much the same outside of that.

Oh, and GM does use Bosch hardware. The main difference is that the first DI applications were developed and calibrated by Bosch. Ford did the development and calibration for the EcoBoosts.

It is sad that the Rotary goes out this way, but if only 1000 people go out and buy these cars a year, it's a pretty minor market....
Aug. 23, 2011 7:09 a.m. jstein77 Dork

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

marks93cobra wrote:

The rotary in the rx8s totally sucked. A co-worker just had to shell out $4500 out of pocket b/c Mazda wouldn't give her the "FREE" engine it ended up getting anyway! The car only had about 30k miles on it, and I guarantee you it wasn't beat on.

That's probably why it blew up.

...it probably would haved blown up sooner

Doubtful. Rotaries don't function well if babied around. That's why it's not a great motor for your average consumer.

Also why it's a great racing motor.

QFT. A co-worker lost a motor in her RX-8 when a coil went south and she tried to nurse it home on one rotor. Wiped the apex seals, side seals and rotor housing on rotor #2. Fortunately, hers was covered under warrantee. She's still driving it today.
Aug. 23, 2011 7:44 a.m. Josh Dork

I've been wishing for the last 16 years that Mazda would build a Miata with a roof, hatchback, and a turbo rotary under the hood. Hopefully that's what the rumored 2 seater rotary car ends up being. They could call it the RX-5.
Aug. 23, 2011 9:36 a.m. pilotbraden HalfDork

Knurled wrote:

Javelin wrote: 1. That's probably the best application. Rotaries suck at idling and running at light load, even after they ditched the peripheral exhaust ports. They actually get more efficient the harder they're run. Which is probably why I've long noted that I can get better fuel economy at 80mph than at 60 :)

I have noticed while cruising at 95-105 mph for several hours that my mileage is not any worse than at the speed limit. This is true for my RX-8 and the RX-7 that i used to drive
Aug. 23, 2011 9:51 p.m. wlkelley3 Dork

mad_machine wrote:

could it have hurt that the RX8 was an ugly beast?

A lot of the non-car people I know think my RX8 is very cool looking and have people walk up and say they like my car. Even had people yell it out as I pass them. Also had a couple people offer to buy it. And mine is stock except MazdaSpeed springs that lower it some. So that is just a matter of opinion.

Had my engine replaced under warranty at 97k, just in time before the warranty expired.

Can't see that having 2 Mazdas autocrossing in the same class could help. Especially since one is significanly cheaper and is the answer here. I have a 04 RX8 for a dd & 99 Miata that I autocross because it's cheaper to maintain than the RX8. That could be another thing that doesn't help, I mean $20 each for spark plugs. Come on now. $80 to change plugs plus at least that much (on sale) for new wires.

Already heard that the RX8 is going away and that something else will replace it later with the new (in-development) rotary. Do agree that the RX8 would be awsome with a 20B.
Aug. 24, 2011 10:09 a.m. Gearheadotaku Dork

I was never a fan of the RX-8, but I do hope Mazda will continue to build rotary engines. A fastback or shooting brake Miata comes to mind....

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