Miata HLA Question-Page 3: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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April 27, 2011 10:45 a.m. Xceler8x SuperDork

I'm not convinced that clicking HLA's are nothing to worry about. If they clatter a bit at start up I'm inclined to leave it alone as the clattering stops. If they clatter all the freaking time...I'm inclined to think that I should investigate. There are many remedies and much conversation about how to fix this.

I'm skeptical of this just as I'm skeptical that miata.net is full of "ass-hats". I've gotten a lot of good advice and input from miata.net. It's been a very friendly and helpful forum. Now, miataturbo.net? Yes, full of asshats. I own a boosted Miata and I won't set foot in the place.

I remember the post wherein the editor of GRM posted about his new turbo miata with a certain bit of bomber art on the hood. Those little minds could do nothing but deride and insinuate as opposed to being supportive and welcoming.
April 27, 2011 11:20 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

..... Or replace, since it's a part of the valvetrain that is either failing or has failed. There will be repercussions from ignoring it. Just may not happen right away.

HLAs are cheap, and not that hard to replace. Leaving them in there not working properly is not really the best option.
April 27, 2011 11:38 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

djhives wrote:

Nobody said anything about caring for a car keith... the point is the HLA noise which is common on MANY cars is somehow mystified in the sheeple miata community to be bigger than it really is...

bottom line -- its nothing to worry about...

You'd be an idiot to ignore the clatter. Mine did that:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/gulp-miata-broken/27086/page1/#post435603

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/listen-to-my-miata-go-bang-bang-bang/31714/page1/

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/awe-poop/31161/page1/

And the results:

I sold the car and the new owner had to buy and install 16 new HLA's, plus a pair of cams. Bottom end will need a rebuild before it makes full power ever again.
April 27, 2011 11:41 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

In reply to Javelin:

Miata.net may have taught you that....

(decidedly not directed at Javelin...)
April 27, 2011 11:45 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

alfadriver wrote:

In reply to Javelin:

Miata.net may have taught you that....

(decidedly not directed at Javelin...)

Miata.net told me that clicking HLAs were bad. You mean to tell me that it's a myth, and they're actually good?

My world is meaningless now.
April 27, 2011 11:46 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

alfadriver wrote:

In reply to Javelin:

Miata.net may have taught you that....

(decidedly not directed at Javelin...)

LMAO!
April 27, 2011 11:52 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

In reply to Javelin:

Miata.net may have taught you that....

(decidedly not directed at Javelin...)

Miata.net told me that clicking HLAs were bad. You mean to tell me that it's a myth, and they're actually good?

My world is meaningless now.

dang, you stumped me on that one.

Perhaps miata.net would have a clever reply.
April 27, 2011 12:07 p.m. Xceler8x SuperDork

Javelin, are those smoothed lobes on your cam?! Ouch!

What happened to the bottom end of that motor?
April 27, 2011 12:28 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

Xceler8x wrote:

Javelin, are those smoothed lobes on your cam?! Ouch!

What happened to the bottom end of that motor?

No, the lobes are still mostly there (though they were under spec). That's at full valve-closed position on the cam, and you can slide a quarter between the lobe and the HLA. All of the metal from the cams and lifters washed into the oil (and thus, the bearings), and all of the oil liked to go through those open valves to the rings. It ran fine and had OK compression, but after repair it was down at least 10HP to a healthy 1.6 across the board, which is like 25% of the total .

Bottom line is, if you have lifter that make any louder noise than a slight tick, or make noise any longer than immediately after start-up, you need to be PRO-active and either clean/rebuild them (per instructions on miata.net) or replace them. Staying on top of oil changes (shorter intervals if racing/lapping/autoxing) and using quality oil will both also help.

Do note that I bought that car with zero service history from the shadiest used car dealer in the Northwest, and 159K miles already on it.
April 27, 2011 1:23 p.m. Xceler8x SuperDork

Javelin wrote:

No, the lobes are still mostly there (though they were under spec). That's at full valve-closed position on the cam, and you can slide a quarter between the lobe and the HLA. All of the metal from the cams and lifters washed into the oil (and thus, the bearings), and all of the oil liked to go through those open valves to the rings. It ran fine and had OK compression, but after repair it was down at least 10HP to a healthy 1.6 across the board, which is like 25% of the total .

Whoa. Thanks for the warning.
April 27, 2011 1:27 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

No problem! I was in that car for so stupidly little that I was able to turn a tiny profit even with essentially a blown motor, but yeah it's a crappy situation.
April 27, 2011 2:13 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

djhives wrote:

Nobody said anything about caring for a car keith... the point is the HLA noise which is common on MANY cars is somehow mystified in the sheeple miata community to be bigger than it really is...

bottom line -- its nothing to worry about...

I'm not thinking "ZOMG! Teh car iz makin' noises! It going to esplode!!!!1!"

I am aware that lifter tick is not unusual, but the severity has crossed a threshold for me that I'm now concerned. It might not be really bad, but it is certainly not how the engine was meant to operate, and strikes me as being worth looking into.

My general impression is that I have not done damage to the engine, but that there is a chance that I could if I ignore the problem.
April 27, 2011 2:17 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

Salanis wrote:

djhives wrote:

Nobody said anything about caring for a car keith... the point is the HLA noise which is common on MANY cars is somehow mystified in the sheeple miata community to be bigger than it really is...

bottom line -- its nothing to worry about...

I'm not thinking "ZOMG! Teh car iz makin' noises! It going to esplode!!!!1!"

I am aware that lifter tick is not unusual, but the severity has crossed a threshold for me that I'm now concerned. It might not be really bad, but it is certainly not how the engine was meant to operate, and strikes me as being worth looking into.

My general impression is that I have not done damage to the engine, but that there is a chance that I could if I ignore the problem.

I would say there is a certainty that something bad will happen eventually if you don't look into it. See my above posts.
April 27, 2011 3:31 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

Javelin wrote:

I would say there is a certainty that something bad will happen eventually if you don't look into it. See my above posts.

How long did you run your car to end up with that kind of damage? I have not noticed any kind of metallic flakes in my oil, but I have not cut open and inspected the oil filter.
April 27, 2011 3:36 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

Salanis wrote:

Javelin wrote:

I would say there is a certainty that something bad will happen eventually if you don't look into it. See my above posts.

How long did you run your car to end up with that kind of damage? I have not noticed any kind of metallic flakes in my oil, but I have not cut open and inspected the oil filter.

Where it actually made noise and never stopped? About 5 minutes. My car was showing signs (looking back with 20/20 hindsight) for nearly a year though. The tick getting longer, staying longer, and coming at hot oil were all signs of degrading HLA's. Had I paid closer attention to those signs and rebuilt or replaced the HLA's my motor would not have gone into full-failure mode. The OP's car is showing the same sypmtoms.

I caught metallic in the oil thanks to a magnetic drain plug recommended by and purchased from Keith.
April 27, 2011 3:54 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

Ok, now I'm officially nervous. Sounds like I'll leave the car to sit until I take a closer look at it and just use the gas-thirsty van for errands today.
April 28, 2011 1:17 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

Ok, I pulled the cover and did a quick visual investigation. I didn't see any visible gap or any signs of machining the cams. So at the very least I haven't damaged anything yet.

I still need to go in there with proper shims to check the gaps properly. I can't find my "Performance Projects" book at the moment, grrr...