Modify it or sell it?: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

Subscribe get a full year for only $23.95 Sample Free Test Drive—no strings attached

Oct. 14, 2011 5:12 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

Our season is over. I won all 7 autocrosses in P02 class in the 944 and would have won 6 of the 7 in the next class up (Improved 01). There's 3 people in my class (2 of which are me and my wife) and 5 in I01. All of the cars in I01 are pretty close and next season could be really fun there.

My issue is, do I really want to put the required maintenance (timing belt, clutch job) into my 944, plus the upgrades (shocks, front camber plates/bolts, cat-back, etc) this winter while working on the Javelin and rearing Javelin Jr?

Or do I want to sell it now for maximum profit and buy something else for next season in who knows what class?
Oct. 14, 2011 5:30 p.m. johnnytorque New Reader

As a fellow 944 owner I say do it. I have owned many cars, but nothing seems to give me the same smiles I get in my 944.

What you have listed though, is not cheap. Once it's done you will be free to beat on your car. You know the car is a winner already, wait till you do some work on it!
Oct. 14, 2011 5:44 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

Javelin wrote:

Or do I want to sell it now for maximum profit and buy something else for next season in who knows what class?

Whatever you replace it with will probably not be as well sorted as what you have now. You'll end up taking more time away from the other projects to bring the new one up to your standards and probably spend more time than if you just do the necessary items on the 944. Keep it, enjoy it, and get to that Javelin :)
Oct. 14, 2011 6:06 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

Well I had to do to this one was tires and some maintenance. Same story on my Miata. I'm pretty good at finding something that'll make it 1 season

The long term plan is to buy Mrs. Javelin a Boxster S (cause she really, really likes them... and Windevil Blue 05 Mustang GT's.) and I can race the Javelin. She'll probably be sitting out some of next season though, and I miss having a fast car (sniffFBRX7sniff) that actually looks and sounds like a race car.

I wish I could get some sponsorship or something from a Porsche shop. If I could get all the work done for reasonable, it wouldn't even be a question.
Oct. 14, 2011 6:25 p.m. dean1484 SuperDork

Keep the 944. Other than the clutch none of those jobs are alot of time. A little shopping around hill get the parts for not much money. The clutch is a two day job by your self. Heack if you are thinking of a front end service just pull the motor it will make the motor service a snap and the clutch job easy. I can pull a motor in about two hours. One if I dont have to worry about putting it back in.
Oct. 14, 2011 6:37 p.m. pigeon Dork

Does it really need a clutch?
Oct. 14, 2011 6:57 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

pigeon wrote:

Does it really need a clutch?

Yes. The clutch only has 60K on it, but you can tell it's not up to autocross as at the last 2 events it would slip on the 7th and 8th runs (with dual drivers).

As for the jobs, I have been thinking of dropping the front subframe/motor as I'd like to do the oil seals, pan gasket, and rod bearings too. Is this a good idea? Just bite the bullet and basically re-do the whole front of the car (clutch kit, oil seals, pan gasket, rod bearings, timing belt, balance belts, plugs, all new fluids, hoses)?
Oct. 14, 2011 7:06 p.m. dean1484 SuperDork

Mods I recomend:

Put Koni sports in it and be done with it. Yess you can go cheeper but this is the one single place I would not. It is by far the best mod/upgrade I ever made to my car. While you are there put Iboc progressive springs in the front. The rear torsion bars are fine. No need to go to coil over. The added stiffness from the Koni's make changing them not really worth it. You should however re index the ride height in the rear if you get the Iboc's in the front. This makes a huge difference in how the car handels. Many people lower the frount and by doing this you are moving the weight forward. This can really make things ugly. Get the car back to level and then put it on a set of scales and fine tune it. BUT dont go more than a 1/2 inch in ride hight difference between the frount and rear trying to get the weigh corect. The adjustment is made on the trailing arms there are two bolts that allow for enough adjustment so you don't have to re index the torsion bars (that is a PITA).

Next go find some weltmister frount and rear adjustable bars. That is all you need to make this handle. The weltmisters have infinit adjustability. My car ended up liking then set dead in the middle of the adjustment range. I really dont think you need the camber plates but hay if they are cheep go for it. My car seems to be able to get enough camber with the stock set up. I am however using it for road course's. I would imagine autocross would require more camber.

I have the Koni's set full stiff and the bars are set almost exactly in the middle. This makes the car virtually neutral. I can control how it handles by how I set it in to a corner (by adding throtal or brakes or just letting off the throtal and letting it rotate.)

Dam do I ramble on. KEEP THE 944!!!!

EDIT: The motor can come out the top. I prefer doing it this way. You need an engine lift to do it. I think it is safer this way when going back in. If something goes wrong when re installing it the cross member will keep things from crashing down on you. You also don't have to mess with the frount suspension and the steering rack/shaft taking it out the top.
Oct. 14, 2011 8:25 p.m. mr2peak Reader

Winning is fun, but your class sounds really really really small. I'd move up just to make the racing more like racing
Oct. 15, 2011 12:55 a.m. turboswede SuperDork

Stiffer rear torsion bars are cheap and if you do the math properly can be indexed on the first try.

Check out the 28mm off-road torsion bars from Cip1.com. I have a set on my 924 and they go well with the adjustable Weltmeister bars I have.

Instead of progressive rate Eibachs, I'd look at adjustable spring perches and 2.5" coil springs. Just personal preference. The 924 racers found some cheaper alternatives for the front and rear that are a slightly better option. I'll dig up the thread for ya if you're interested.

BTW, I have a set of Weltmeister front springs (220lb) if you're interested, let me know.
Oct. 15, 2011 6:57 a.m. pigeon Dork

Damn, you guys are making me miss my POS 951. I love my M3 but the essential balance and lightness of the 951 made it very fun to drive even on a worn out suspension.
Oct. 15, 2011 7:41 a.m. dean1484 SuperDork

turboswede wrote:

Stiffer rear torsion bars are cheap and if you do the math properly can be indexed on the first try.

I put them in my car and for some reason it was a serious PITA. I also did not really notice all that much of a difference. It was the last thing I did after the bars and rear shocks. I ended up taking them out and re installing the stock ones as some one wanted them from me and was willing to pay me more than I got them for.

If you made this mod first it would probably make the improvement more noticeable. The only thing I would consider if I was doing this all over again would be to go to an adjustable coil over at all four corners. That way I could balance the car's weight easier. The corner weight in my car was way off left to right on the diagonal. (does this make sense?) You get the tedertodder effect in the handling when this occurs. This was the hardest thing to correct as there really is not a lot of weight that you can move around in one of these cars. Adjustable coil overs would have made fixing this a snap. But I am very happy the way my car is set up now. I have not had to change it in 7-8 years now. It is not broken so I am not fighting it. I have this great ability to take something that I know is working well and try to "fix" it anyway. Usually it is a bad idea.
Oct. 15, 2011 9:31 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

Engine out from the top? Even easier! I own a cherry picker!

My car has the M456 factory non-adjustable Sport Suspension, so I already have F&R sways and supposedly really good rebuildable struts. Should I go ahead and upgrade to the Koni's to make my car a modern M030?

Which clutch and timing belt kit should I get? The t-belt, balance belts, and water pump (Turbo) were done all of 15K miles ago (but it's been 4 years) so I'm thinking just the t-belt this time? Which oil seals? (Where oh where is Maroon Bradley????)
Oct. 15, 2011 9:32 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

Oh, and as far as I know torsion bars are not allowed in I01, but springs and shocks are. I'm trying to get my hands on a 2011 copy of the rules.
Oct. 15, 2011 12:24 p.m. turboswede SuperDork

That's just silly that you can change coil springs but not torsion springs. Nice to know that the SCCA doesn't have the market cornered on silly rules ;)

Here's the thread on strut/shock alternative for race/DE cars.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=25272

If you know the measurement of the trailing arm to the "banana arm" on the rear suspension along with the rate, you can calculate where the arm needs to be once the stiffer rear bars are installed.

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31669

Good luck!
Oct. 15, 2011 3:58 p.m. dean1484 SuperDork

Javelin wrote:

Engine out from the top? Even easier! I own a cherry picker!

My car has the M456 factory non-adjustable Sport Suspension, so I already have F&R sways and supposedly really good rebuildable struts. Should I go ahead and upgrade to the Koni's to make my car a modern M030?

Which clutch and timing belt kit should I get? The t-belt, balance belts, and water pump (Turbo) were done all of 15K miles ago (but it's been 4 years) so I'm thinking just the t-belt this time? Which oil seals? (Where oh where is Maroon Bradley????)

If you decide to do this we should talk by phone. There are some tricks to this that I can pass on to you making this easy.
Oct. 15, 2011 11:08 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

I'm going to get the latest rules first, as I have no idea what all I can do to the car in the I01 class, and I do want it to be legal.

I will definitely call Dean if I decide to go down that road. I'd say 85% chance!
Oct. 15, 2011 11:25 p.m. ckosacranoid Dork

so what needs to be done to finsh the javalin to autocross it?
Oct. 16, 2011 9:03 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

Brakes and front suspension need to go in, gas tank needs to come out for a cleaning, the interior has to be pulled and seats re-done, passenger door needs to be fixed, and make sure the trans works. Then it will need wheels and tires, new shocks, a carb rebuild/tune, and a cooling system re-do. Then it might drive well enough to autocross.

At least I can work on the 944's engine in my garage while it snows!