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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » More on the "400HP, 110MPG" HP2g engine

Jan. 6, 2010 11:50 a.m. SlickDizzy SuperDork

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/06/detroit-preview-hp2g-revenge-verde-super-car/

More info there. The Verde HP2g supercar is apparently finally ready for NAIAS. And we get some "detailed" info on the motor...which doesn't really explain much. The press release seems like it was written by someone who hasn't quite mastered English. I still don't buy it, this whole thing smells like snake oil.

Autoblog said:
The best we can figure, as we noted when we wrote about this car before, is that Pelmear is only talking about the petroleum portion of the E85 fuel, and is somehow counting the ethanol as free energy. That may work for the headlines, but it won't win the AXP, which looks at all the energy that goes into the car.

PRESS RELEASE said:
Revenge VERDE with 110 MPG V8 HP2g engine to be on Display at North American International Auto Show

January 11- 24, 2010 ---- The Revenge VERDE Super Car with the 110mpg V8 HP2g engine will be displayed at North American International Auto Show in the GREEN Zone.

The HP2g is a revolutionary alternative energy solution that will reduce the nation's reliance on oil, and help keep the environment clean. The engine runs on E85, (a green alcohol-based fuel) that significantly reduces green house gas emissions. In testing, HP2g has exhibited ultra-high fuel economy and outstanding horsepower upon demand. The HP2g is EPA approved. The first production vehicle to utilize the HP2g technology is the Revenge Verde Super Car, a luxury performance super car from Revenge Designs Inc.

Also to be on display is HP2g engine display, Revenge VERDE Super Car. Both companies look forward to be on display.

all made in the USA.
Jan. 6, 2010 12:02 p.m. tuna55 Reader

The guys who design high mpg cars aren't idiots - all of these are snake oil - it will be a while before any of them actually roll.
Jan. 6, 2010 12:07 p.m. alfadriver Dork

Actually, the 110mpg may be right, using the CAFE rules for the measurement. If you can belive it, the flex fuel rule is a major loophole, where the part of the gas mileage that is counted IS ONLY the 15% of E85 that is gasoline. But, that's JUST for the CAFE numbers, not sticker.

But real world mileage will not be all that great. And I agree on the rest of the snake oil- the EM energy needed to "assist" has to come from somewhere....

Eric
Jan. 6, 2010 12:14 p.m. davidjs New Reader

Looks like they put magnets on the piston top and around the crankshaft, and are trying to use "free" electrical energy? Not sure why you'd want one on the piston though... I'd think that would get kinda heavy for a reciprocating component.

"outstanding horsepower upon demand." is an odd way of wording it... isn't all horsepower "on demand", unless it's not really available all the time.

I'm not sure what they mean by "EPA approved"?
Jan. 6, 2010 12:23 p.m. slefain Dork

The guy is selling smoke. I met him at SEMA and almost called him out.
Jan. 6, 2010 2:15 p.m. kb58 Reader

davidjs wrote: </ "outstanding horsepower upon demand." is an odd way of wording it... isn't all horsepower "on demand",
No, they mean all horsepower is outstanding...
There's an little hybrid car company near me who makes equally crazy/dumb MPG claims. Turns out what they do is run the car until the fuel tank's empty, then go to electric power. Drive slow enough and it'll appear as though the car got huge "gas" mileage - because the electrical portion of the propulsion isn't measured as MPG.

About "EPA approved", if this is the company I'm thinking of, one of the letters they posted to legitimize their existence was from the EPA. Basically all it said was, "Yes, we got your letter and see you're doing some stuff, great job." So the "approved" is a bastardization of the EPA saying "good work."

Magnets... geez, that old game is still around. I call BS on nearly all these companies. It's a real shame, too, as they're giving their entire industry a black eye. I feel sorry for the companies working hard to get real results, and thanks to places like this, they may have a hard time convincing anyone.
Jan. 6, 2010 3:13 p.m. alfadriver Dork

kb58 wrote:

Magnets... geez, that old game is still around. I call BS on nearly all these companies. It's a real shame, too, as they're giving their entire industry a black eye. I feel sorry for the companies working hard to get real results, and thanks to places like this, they may have a hard time convincing anyone.

its not that big of a deal. If you actually produce a product to sell, you have credibility. Especially if the system is used on a product that is sold at about 500/day. That's instant credibility.

Basically, if it's REAL, and I mean REALLY REAL- there would be zero conspiricy, the designer/enginner/company would be millionaires pretty quickly as we all bought up licences. Other than that, if they claim some hidden conspiricy= snake oil.

I'll put it another way- if you could sell a REAL Hummer H2 for $30k, that had 400hp, and got even 50mpg, where you still made $10k profit on it, ALL of the OEM's would do it in a heartbeat.

E-
Jan. 6, 2010 6:04 p.m. iceracer HalfDork

If they are counting only the 15% gasoline, then gas mpg would be great.
Jan. 6, 2010 6:10 p.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

If they are only counting the 15% of gasoline in the mpg calculation, it only seems right to only count the 15% of gasoline in the power number as well.

POS 60HP V8.
Jan. 6, 2010 6:44 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

Thermodynamics and physics? We don't need no stink'n thermodynamics or physics!
Jan. 6, 2010 6:56 p.m. xci_ed6 HalfDork

The second change is the electric motor. Unlike other electric motors today which use what is called full saturation, Pelmear's electric motors operate on a pulse basis, meaning they cycle on and off in rapid succession. It is powered by two spiral core gel batteries. These are common in the racing world and Pelmear has placed them on each side of the car, recharging them from existing technology such as regenerative braking. Also, unlike other cars that use both an electric and gas motors, Pelmear's design allows him to use both at the same time if necessary to achieve a massive 500 ft. lbs. of torque. The variable number of cylinders in use also mean he can go from 400 horsepower all the way down to 15 while cruising.

http://www.hp2g.com/articles.html

I see some major problems with that. One being that pretty much all DC electrics/hybrids already use PWM to control the motors. A/C motors are better though. Second, most hybrids out there also already use the electric & gas in combination.

So really, all they did was put the electric motor inside the gas engine, making a more complicated assembly. They also combined the worst part of a piston engine, the energy inefficient reciprocating motion, and managed to combine that with an electric motor.

Major fail.
Jan. 6, 2010 10:09 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

alfadriver wrote:

Actually, the 110mpg may be right, using the CAFE rules for the measurement. If you can belive it, the flex fuel rule is a major loophole, where the part of the gas mileage that is counted IS ONLY the 15% of E85 that is gasoline. But, that's JUST for the CAFE numbers, not sticker.

So... basically it gets 16.5 mpg? Yeah... I can buy that.
Jan. 6, 2010 10:21 p.m. There are those who call me...Ross. Dork

A Locostusa topic. There was a pretty amusing topic on locostusa about something similar that got off topic. Dont be afraid of the 8 pages it picks up by the end of the first or second page. The word of the day is "overunity".
Jan. 7, 2010 11:51 a.m. kb58 Reader

Oh God... I know that thread. I think that forum is still waiting for the guy to come back with his proof he said would show it all works. Hope they aren't holding their collective breath.
Jan. 7, 2010 11:53 a.m. Ross of Nine Dork

I re-read some of that last night and I got all "riled up", again!
Jan. 7, 2010 1:11 p.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

My car gets 28 million MPG™ *.

* - MPG™ is in SnorkelWacker units, roughly approximated to be actual observed miles per gallon multipled by one million.
Jan. 7, 2010 10:15 p.m. Trans_Maro HalfDork

Must be the same people selling the "hydrogen fuel systems" on eBay.

Shawn
Jan. 8, 2010 8:59 a.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

The "Verde" supercar is booked in at the Detroit Motor Show in the Green section, I will be checking it out.
Jan. 8, 2010 10:11 a.m. MadScientistMatt Dork

There are those who call me...Ross. wrote:

A Locostusa topic. There was a pretty amusing topic on locostusa about something similar that got off topic. Dont be afraid of the 8 pages it picks up by the end of the first or second page. The word of the day is "overunity".

Quite an entertaining thread. I found the cone "motor" thing particularly amusing. I enjoy picking apart bizarre unworkable devices, and that one is one of the more absurd ones I've seen. (If you want more off the wall overunity machines, check out the Museum of Unworkable Devices.)

One thing I always wonder - if overunity fanatics are invoking a bunch of things like the Egyptian sun god, zero point energy, and other esoteric concepts in support of why such a device could work, why do they claim that their devices work on purely Newtonian physics? Shouldn't they put together some sort of thing that runs on pure nonsense instead?
Jan. 8, 2010 10:13 a.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

Pure garbage has been done, ask the Doc.
Jan. 8, 2010 10:28 a.m. kb58 Reader

It seems like there's a rather fundamental flaw with these over-unity claims. If you get more energy out than you put in, the moment the machine is started, wouldn't it feed on itself and create an infinite amount of energy, causing another Big Bang?

Seems like since we're still here is proof these devices doen't exist - anywhere.
Jan. 8, 2010 10:32 a.m. kb58 Reader

MadScientistMatt wrote:

One thing I always wonder - if overunity fanatics are invoking a bunch of things like the Egyptian sun god, zero point energy, and other esoteric concepts in support of why such a device could work, why do they claim that their devices work on purely Newtonian physics? Shouldn't they put together some sort of thing that runs on pure nonsense instead?
I've found the longer the "explanation" is of how it works, the less likely that it's for real. It's like making the mistake of answering the phone and getting stuck in a one-sided conversation with a telemarketer. They seem to think as long as they keep talking, they've convinced you to buy their crap.
Jan. 8, 2010 1:21 p.m. MadScientistMatt Dork

kb58 wrote: I've found the longer the "explanation" is of how it works, the less likely that it's for real. It's like making the mistake of answering the phone and getting stuck in a one-sided conversation with a telemarketer. They seem to think as long as they keep talking, they've convinced you to buy their crap.

True enough, but an explanation so bizarre it is entirely removed from Newtonian physics at least is harder to argue with or analyze mathematically.

On the one sided telemarketer conversations, before the Do Not Call list, my approach when they wouldn't stop yacking was to say, "Please hold," put the telephone over a speaker, and put on an endless loop of Animaniacs songs and walk away. I once had one who was still on the line when I came back twenty minutes later.

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