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Javelin
Javelin SuperDork
5/24/11 1:40 p.m.

Autoblog reports that a watchdog group revealed that Toyota led NASA on and restricted other research. NASA also actually found electronic faults that could lead to acceleration and those findings were squashed.

Is it me, or did it suddenly get very hot in here? Put on your tin foil hats, armor plating, or Toyata Fanboi garb as appropriate, because this one is far from over...

fasted58
fasted58 Reader
5/24/11 1:48 p.m.

We may never know... but no matter what 'they- who is them in power and of influence' say, I still don't believe the single bullet theory.

Travis_K
Travis_K SuperDork
5/24/11 1:54 p.m.

Whether or not there is a specific explanation for the toyota incident, IMO people have willingly accepted that a certain number of people are going be injured or killed due to malfunctions in the technology that new cars use. Thats not to say that the same thing hasn't happened with non electronic systems in cars, but it is pretty much certain that people will be dead that would not have been if they were in an older car.

dogbreath
dogbreath Reader
5/24/11 1:56 p.m.

The 80's were a better time for Toyota.

Scott
Scott Dork
5/24/11 1:58 p.m.

It is over. Once the story dropped out of the news, reports of unintended acceleration plummeted. Nothing to see here.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
5/24/11 1:58 p.m.

Is that group legit/trusted? Their website smells to me. And it's not of roses.

I'm not taking a side yet.

DukeOfUndersteer
DukeOfUndersteer SuperDork
5/24/11 2:00 p.m.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
5/24/11 2:08 p.m.
Scott wrote: It is over. Once the story dropped out of the news, reports of unintended acceleration plummeted. Nothing to see here.

This, too.

Unintended acceleration bandwagon.

John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
5/24/11 2:09 p.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Unintended acceleration bandwagon.

I used to love that band, they suck since 16VCorey died.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
5/24/11 2:12 p.m.
John Brown wrote:
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Unintended acceleration bandwagon.

I used to love that band, they suck since 16VCorey died.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 Dork
5/24/11 2:14 p.m.

Here's what I've never understood.

Let's say there is a problem. And it makes the accelerator stick wide open. And you can't turn it off because you have some goofy push button thing.

If you hit the brakes and hold them on, you still stop. I know some car magazines have tested this.

I dunno. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I just don't see how it can happen. Electronic bugs or no.

z31maniac
z31maniac SuperDork
5/24/11 2:27 p.m.

^Because the vast majority of automotively apathetic individuals are morons.

nderwater
nderwater Dork
5/24/11 2:35 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote: If you hit the brakes and hold them on, you still stop. I know some car magazines have tested this.

Ever cooked your brakes on track? It feels like the pedal just stops working, and the next thing you know you're in the gravel trap. If the accelerator is jammed at high speeds and you can't get the car out of gear or turned off, you really only have one solid chance to get the car stopped - you have to fully commit to standing on the brakes. If you pulse the brakes, pull the e-brake, or ride the brake at only moderate pressure, you can quickly overheat the brakes, leaving them unable to overcome the cars momentum and the force of the engine no matter how hard you stand on them.

Raze
Raze Dork
5/24/11 2:46 p.m.

Someone have the link to the old thread we talked this to death? I made the point that you'd have to do detailed signal analysis over just about every operating path, i.e. what the FAA does to certify electronics onboard aircraft for flight, and even then, certain logic holes escape detection. Since the NHSTA can't hold a flame to the obsessiveness of the FAA it's almost a certainty that something would escape detection. The real trick is how to minimized the perceived problem so people don't panic over minutia, in other words, this doesn't surprise me, but doesn't worry me either...

Vigo
Vigo Dork
5/24/11 2:54 p.m.
Whether or not there is a specific explanation for the toyota incident, IMO people have willingly accepted that a certain number of people are going be injured or killed due to malfunctions in the technology that new cars use.

Agree.

but it is pretty much certain that people will be dead that would not have been if they were in an older car.

Disagree. Thats a GIANT, SWEEPING generalization.

Let's say there is a problem. And it makes the accelerator stick wide open. And you can't turn it off because you have some goofy push button thing. If you hit the brakes and hold them on, you still stop.

Correct.

you really only have one solid chance to get the car stopped - you have to fully commit to standing on the brakes. If you pulse the brakes, pull the e-brake, or ride the brake at only moderate pressure, you can quickly overheat the brakes,

And fast_eddie's point still stands.

Toyota may be responsible for creating a glitchy product, but i dont think that makes them responsible for anyone dieing in this case. All of the cars had brakes that when used properly would have prevented high-speed collisions, which is all beside the point of simply knowing how to put your car in neutral or shut off the engine.

The way i see it, the fatalities are an open and shut case of operator error. The problem with the product is a very minor concern to me. What i care most about is how Toyota and the governmental agencies responsible for investigating are handling the situation, and i suppose that's what the OP is really talking about.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 Dork
5/24/11 3:01 p.m.
nderwater wrote:
fast_eddie_72 wrote: If you hit the brakes and hold them on, you still stop. I know some car magazines have tested this.

Ever cooked your brakes on track?

Well, on the track you're using the brakes hard, lap after lap after lap. If you take normal, working, not overheated brakes, jam your right foot on the gas and your left foot on the brake, I'm guessing your left foot will win.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair SuperDork
5/24/11 3:26 p.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Is that group legit/trusted? Their website smells to me. And it's not of roses. I'm not taking a side yet.

a quote from the "About Us" link on their website:

Vehicle Inspections and Case TriageTM How do you decide to pursue litigation against a manufacturer without first investing substantial costs? Let Safety Research & Strategies perform a Vehicle Inspection and Case TriageTM to help you evaluate and understand the potential issues even before you file a case. What Is Case TriageTM? * Vehicle Interior and Exterior * Damage Analysis * Occupant Restraint & System Data * Tire Data * Accident Facts * Vehicle Complaints, Recalls, and Investigations * Components Evaluation * Crash Analysis * Case Theory(s) * Pros & Cons of Pursuing a Product * Liability Case Based on Evidence and Facts * Detailed Photo & Video Portfolio of the Accident Vehicle(s) * Easy to Read, Searchable Electronic Inspection Report * Flat Fee for a Full Day of Triage Services

key phrase is pursue litigation against a manufacturer. there are those who would say that the producers of this report are the servants of ambulance chasers. and there are those who would speculate that they're involved in laying the groundwork for a class-action against Toyota.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
5/24/11 3:30 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote:
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Is that group legit/trusted? Their website smells to me. And it's not of roses. I'm not taking a side yet.

a quote from the "About Us" link on their website:

Vehicle Inspections and Case TriageTM How do you decide to pursue litigation against a manufacturer without first investing substantial costs? Let Safety Research & Strategies perform a Vehicle Inspection and Case TriageTM to help you evaluate and understand the potential issues even before you file a case. What Is Case TriageTM? * Vehicle Interior and Exterior * Damage Analysis * Occupant Restraint & System Data * Tire Data * Accident Facts * Vehicle Complaints, Recalls, and Investigations * Components Evaluation * Crash Analysis * Case Theory(s) * Pros & Cons of Pursuing a Product * Liability Case Based on Evidence and Facts * Detailed Photo & Video Portfolio of the Accident Vehicle(s) * Easy to Read, Searchable Electronic Inspection Report * Flat Fee for a Full Day of Triage Services

key phrase is pursue litigation against a manufacturer. there are those who would say that the producers of this report are the servants of ambulance chasers. and there are those who would speculate that they're involved in laying the groundwork for a class-action against Toyota.

That's about what i got out of it. Fear mongerers and lawyers scraping for a buck or thousands.

Plus, i work with CDH Triage (Medco) on a daily basis, and they suck. Bad. It's a triage, same thing.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
5/24/11 4:20 p.m.
If you take normal, working, not overheated brakes, jam your right foot on the gas and your left foot on the brake, I'm guessing your left foot will win.

Judging by the fact that most drag cars dont start creeping through the brakes until they are 11 or 10 second cars, i would tend to agree with you.

Havent seen many 10 second prii or camrys lately..

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
5/24/11 4:47 p.m.

I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the toy -oh-duh police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this...

I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like "Unintended," "They," and "Brakes" etc etc... for your little tinfoil hat theory or whatever in the forums. I myself do not have a hat, nor am I a prius or toyobaru owner, but I feel sensitivity for people who were duped into liking those things as I am a omfg level 3 mage on the internet, and my cat is pursuing a 4chan meme in the field.

These terms although I'm pretty sure are not even real words, are obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe people with actual cars, and it appears that they are used on these boards in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of people who are afflicted with the need for tinfoil hats or who like catsup. Also, Mr T pidydafoo who be ignoring the ignore thread sucka.

Javelin
Javelin SuperDork
5/24/11 8:39 p.m.

I am absolutely convinced that nearly every actual unintential acceleration claim on Toyota has at least some blame on driver error. They were bland enough to buy a Beige Camry anyways, so they probably have no idea what's going on, which leads me to point #2:

Yes, every normal modern car with discs can "out-stop" itself, and Edmund's Inside Line did the test (with Car & Driver following up in print), at least the first time. When you combine a runaway accelerator (due to floor mat, poor design/quality pedal assembly, or gremlins or some combination thereof) with a person that has had exactly no actual driver training on a car that is likely already on worn pads and rotors that squeal, and have the same person panic and slam the brakes on and off, they WILL fail. That will happen with any car.

Which brings me back to why I posted it. I absolutely believe that there is three sides to every story, and I refuse to believe that Toyota needed their scanner plugged into every car to install a metal sliver in the crap-tastic plastic POS pedal. They know there's an actual issue, NASA found it (along with that Professor dude last year), and 'Yota has been caught trying to cover it up. Did the gremlin kill people? Probably not, that was their own fault (or rather society's lack of properly training them to pilot a 2-ton death machine on wheels), but it doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

jimbob_racing
jimbob_racing HalfDork
5/24/11 9:55 p.m.

Maybe make real manual transmissions (with honest to goodness clutch pedals) as the only choice?

former520
former520 New Reader
5/24/11 10:48 p.m.

We had a story on the local news about Lexus killing a woman in her home. The push button start combined with proximity key allowed the car to stay running long enough to fill the house with carbon monoxide. It killed the woman and her husband was in the hospital with complications. They said it was not an isolated incident. My quick googlefu came up short. Happened 2 weeks ago in Scottsdale. That is a user error forgetting to shut off the car, but if there where regular keys, would have she forgot?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327622/Toyota-Lexus-keyless-ignition-blamed-carbon-monoxide-deaths.html

From GRM Headquarters state http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/keyless-ignition-cars-being-blamed-for-carbon-monoxide-1443870.html?cxtype=rss_news

Stealthtercel
Stealthtercel Reader
5/24/11 11:18 p.m.

Not to threadjack (well, I am, but I'm apologizing) but a review of a Nissan hybrid a couple of years back expressed astonishment that this planet-saving appliance could be driven home on battery, parked, and locked up for the night... but still think it was "on" if you didn't push the Stop button, so that when the battery ran down it would happily start itself up at two o'clock in the morning and sit idling until it built up its charge again. Lather, rinse, repeat. If that happened inside a garage, I can see the consequences being very bad.

calteg
calteg New Reader
5/25/11 7:45 a.m.

Whatever happened to putting a "runaway" car in neutral?

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