Opinions on the Flyin Miata butterfly brace?

Since it's on sale today, I'm kind of thinking about it.  My $2017 Miata has over 220K miles on it, and lots of squeaks and rattles.  In the spring, I'm planning on getting a Hard Dog Ace roll bar, partially for style, and partially to stiffen the car up a bit.  For those who have them, would the butterfly brace still be useful, even with a roll bar?  Or will the roll bar stiffen the car up enough that I won't notice much of a difference?

edit:  Oh yeah, I'm not extremely concerned with performance at the limit or anything, mostly with just making the car more pleasant to live with.  Being able to jack up the car on the frame rails without fear of damage would be nice, too.

I put the frame rails on my ‘04 and the difference was striking.  Well worth it.  I didn’t add the butterfly brace section as the NB2 is already fairly well-braced from the factory. Some have reported some challenges with install and exhaust clearance, but it seems to be a small percentage.

In reply to Sanchinguy :

I suppose I should also leave open the possibility of getting just the frame rails.  Edit:  Just noticed, I can get the center brace afterwards if I just get the rails.

Another piece to replace in order to tighten up an aging Miata chassis are the door bushings.  I was really impressed with mine.

HUGE difference. HUGE. 

Butterfly + Hard Dog made a DRAMATIC improvement in chassis stiffness. 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

Another piece to replace in order to tighten up an aging Miata chassis are the door bushings.  I was really impressed with mine.

To reduce NVH, sure. Don't expect door bushings to be load-bearing.

I don't have a butterfly brace on our NA, so I can't comment directly on the effectiveness.  I can say it would be a hassle when working under the car.  Some have experienced clearance issues with various exhaust setups.

I added frame rails, and seam welded the door openings.  I was amazed at the difference just the seam welding made.

I would spend the money on the Paco 'strong arms' or frame rails over the butterfly brace.  The Paco arms are on my list, but  I already spent my money on Brake Friday. 

Stock NA's are the floppiest cars in the world (hyperbole marker...).

I drove a caged one for a while (on track). Groovy: turn in is sharp, transitions feel good - life is good.

I ended up removing the front of the spec miata cage (for a medley of reasons) and cutting it back to a roll bar (i.e. same car, same suspension, same tires etc) - It was like driving a car that had jello tires. Still a joy to drive, but much much less sharp. 

I think that's the main thing about the exocet, it feels like scalpel - turn in, transition response, braking it's all at 11 (though that's not really here or there).

What I'm saying is - if it helps with stiffness, it's going to probably make a huge difference. Convertibles are usually a bit floppier, a 25 year old convertible is going to be next level floppy (not that you'll notice until you change it)

In reply to accordionfolder :

I used to have an NC2.  Definitely a huge difference between that and my current 1996. I don’t need it to be as solid feeling, but some improvement would be nice.  

GRM put one on one of their cars a while back. "Took a hundred thousand miles off the odometer" was the printed report, IIRC.

Roll bars reinforce an area of the chassis that's already pretty strong - which is fine, because their primary purpose is something else. Strong Arms keep the front suspension attached to the front bulkhead. The frame rails and butterfly connect the front and rear of the car together. They're the most effective of the bunch because that's the weakest part of a convertible.

It does add an extra step to pulling the transmission or the exhaust - there are four bolts required to remove the center section. Ground clearance depends on what the exhaust system is. If it's a well-designed exhaust system, the butterfly won't hang below the frame rails so overall clearance won't be affected. If the exhaust hangs low, well, the butterfly needs to hang lower.

^I will say on track I didn't notice a difference between having Frog Arms and not having them. I realize the knew Paco arms are stronger.

z31maniac said:

^I will say on track I didn't notice a difference between having Frog Arms and not having them. I realize the knew Paco arms are stronger.

Was the car already caged?

Rodan said:

z31maniac said:

^I will say on track I didn't notice a difference between having Frog Arms and not having them. I realize the knew Paco arms are stronger.

Was the car already caged?

Nope.

Butterfly brace and Hard Dog roll bar.

Thanks.  That's a good data point to have.

Unless you're running big rates or hammering the berms hard, you don't notice chassis rigidity on the track as much as you notice it on the street. I find the Frog Arms (RIP) and the Strong Arms are most noticeable with a big torquey engine, the butterfly for overall flex.

Just placed the order, too late in the day to get one that is in stock, so it's on backorder.  The car will probably be off the road all winter anyway, so there'll be plenty of time to install it when it does come in.

Keith Tanner said:

Unless you're running big rates or hammering the berms hard, you don't notice chassis rigidity on the track as much as you notice it on the street. I find the Frog Arms (RIP) and the Strong Arms are most noticeable with a big torquey engine, the butterfly for overall flex.

That was on 800/500 at Hallett before it was repaved. Every time you miss a curb, God kills a kitten.......except turn 10. 

However, I will add the Frog Arms did wonders for NVH and Cowl shake on our crummy OK roads. 

Keith Tanner said:

Unless you're running big rates or hammering the berms hard, you don't notice chassis rigidity **on the track as much as you notice it on the street.** ...

Why do you say that? Or are you referring to the butterfly brace specifically? I've had precisely the opposite experience. For my anecdote I was running very mild rates at the time; it was night and day for the overall "responsiveness" of the car at Laguna and Sonoma. It felt like a floppy noodle without the full cage - it was one of those "E36 M3" moments  (those pucker moments on track when you think something has gone horribly wrong mechanically)  when I hit the track. I remember it quite vividly.

Because generally speaking, tracks are smoother than streets. Hallett being a possible exception. You can choose to hit berms or not. If the car was so floppy that it felt like it was about to crash on track then probably shuddered all over the place on the street. And of course, a full cage vs stock is about the biggest difference in rigidity possible.

This is based on Miatas. Other cars may be different.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Gotcha - and to clarify - it wasn't that it felt like it was going to crash per say. It felt like something was off - more a nebulous wtf feeling. After I did a once over to make sure nothing was actually broken or loose and thought on it for a second I realized what was "wrong" and finished the day problem free (albeit rather slower than usual - I wasn't in the groove and the car shook me up. I got some sweet pictures though)

I was just startled at how big of a difference it made. 

Is the butterfly brace something you need on a rally-x Miata?

just taking notes here

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Hallett feels perfectly peachy to me, since the re-paving. But, like Z31 said, clearly you haven't spent much time on too many Tulsa area streets... You'll find every last bit of flop, bend, twist, rattle, and squeak a car has in less than 2 miles of driving. Stiff is good around here!

fasted58 said:

Is the butterfly brace something you need on a rally-x Miata?

just taking notes here

I don't know if you'd need the whole thing or not, but with my rallycross experience of having to lift cars in fields, the frame rail braces can't hurt to have.  Anything that adds to the number of points you can place a jack is a good thing.

I have't been to Hallett since the NC was the new hotness, so I haven't checked out the new pavement. I certainly remember the local roads.

Highway 412 is actually pretty nice, now. But the access road up to the track needed to be bulldozed and re-laid years ago. Z31's 800/500 springs prolly knock his fillings loose every time he's on that little stretch of unpleasantness.